wondering about these strike>grapple and grapple>strike examples from pro wrestling

Plane · 02-15-2022, 05:13 PM

Situation A = https://youtu.be/Uh1sTnhpMrA

In this first instance, on a missed kick at Nikki Ash's head you notice that Rhea Ripley overextends her foot and gets it stuck on top of the rope. If you had actually kicked someone you would get some recoil that would help propel you backward and probably not get stuck on the rope.

Although "there's a rope at shoulder-height adjacent to my target" is an unusual situation outside of fighting inside the squared circle, one thing I wondered about would be something along these lines happening with "narrow miss" or "narrow dodge" situations when a thrust kick is done to the head.

If for example a thrusting kick missed the face by just an inch (you can feel the breeze on your year) one might conceivably overextend the foot and not be able to pull it back in time before the foot lowers on top of the shoulder and the heel gets caught, making it difficult to bring the foot back down.

This seems like some kind of grappling situation so I'm wondering what people's thoughts might be on some kind of optional "miss by 1" rule with kicks to the face where if it goes off to the side like this, there's some risk of it counting like a successful "leg grapples torso and torso grapples leg" (both for zero control points per Technical Grappling) though the target has the option of dodging this via an active defense.

I could see this maybe also happen on a successful kick to face which gets narrowly dodged (MoS zero) which might be desirable or undesirable for either party (ie who has the aura, etc)

This wouldn't be a thing with punches since they aren't as awkward as high kicks since you could hold your hand up there indefinitely without it getting stuck (kicks rely on explosive momentum to go that high, usually: people can usually kick higher than they can actively hold their foot for seconds)

Part of the issue here though is the effects of MoF1/MoS0 attacks/defenses might vary depending on what kind of kicking you're doing, even when it falls under the same technique.

MA66:

Almost every standing kick to a frontal target – including crescent, rising, side, and snap kicks – is a straight kicking attack at Karate-2

Even if these are the same damage-wise (whether you're doing a thrusting front kick or thrusting side kick to the front of the jaw, a snap kick to the bottom of the jaw, or a crescent kick to the side of the jaw) it might be interesting if we had different near-miss odds/outcomes depending on which of these things someone chose.

A crescent kick for example you pretty much have to duck or lean back to avoid, you can't tilt your head to either side to dodge it, that'd probably just lessen the damage by making contact w/ the foot or shin too early or too late for max force.

A narrow miss would either not extend far enough (wiff in front) or be too low (hits neck or shoulder) or too high (wiffs overhead).

It would just be crunchtastic and interesting to have these kinds of variations for crescent kick outcomes differ from thrusting kicks.

Snap kicks or thrusting front kicks I could als osee something like if you got stop-hitted by a wait you might be able to transform it into a knee strike? Not something you could do with an axe kick though.

- - -

Situation B = https://youtu.be/zhnsYxpO_sw

If someone is clinging to your back and you want to back into a wall (or turnbuckle) to injure/stun them so they let go (or maybe cause Shock so the DX penalty makes it easier to Break Free) I'm not sure how to treat this.

I would figure normally you can't "slam" someone who is doing a torso-on-torso grapple since there is no space between you to accelerate and cause impacts...

I thought about MA118's "Kiss the Wall" which seems like the closest match but I don't really know how legal this is. When you see Ripley (tall, in black) smash the back of Morgan (short, in pink) into the turn buckle, Ripley is not actually using her hands to grapple Morgan's torso, meaning she doesn't fulfill the "If you’ve used two hands to grapple a foe" requirement of Kiss the Wall.

Instead, Rhea is grabbing the ropes and using them to allow her to add the force of her arms to accelerate herself backward at a higher velocity than she'd be able to relying on just gravity/falling/tilting.

You see this sometimes too when someone is "spearing" (shoulder tackle to gut) someone into a corner at close range: they can't get a running start so they grab the ropes and pull (using lats) themselves into the corner at a faster velocity than with legs alone.

Do you think this type of thing would operate similar to a "grapple and strike" except instead of grappling the body part you are hitting (ie muai thai pulling opponent's head down into their knee strike) you are grabbing something directly behind (in the path of attack) your intended target?

That seems like it should be able to add force/damage but that it would also be less accurate. You're basically relying on your opponent to be immobile so they don't change their position relative to what you are grappling.

That works either if your opponent is stunned in the corner, or if they are grappling you and so you know "they are where I am".

I really don't know how to handle this though... should you be able to "slam" someone by slamming another object (a wall, a turnbuckle) while they're clinging to you?

This seems like it could cause all three of you damage... but I don't know how you deal with 3-way collisions like this.

You see this sometimes in wrestling w/ tag team matches where instead of doing a single slam and letting the foe fly backward, your partner slams them from the other direction simultaneously, keeping them in place (negating knockback) and amplifying damage via a squish effect. I'll see if I can find some footage, pretty sure "the bouncers" on ROH or similar big-man teams like Heavy Machinery or War Machine (Viking Raiders) have done it.

I'm thinking w/ a tag team that "we slam at the same time" idea might be covered by using Coordinated Attack (P166) to sum wounds, but I don't know how this would work if your tag team partner was a turnbuckle/wall.

02-15-2022, 05:13 PM	#1
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	wondering about these strike>grapple and grapple>strike examples from pro wrestling Situation A = https://youtu.be/Uh1sTnhpMrA In this first instance, on a missed kick at Nikki Ash's head you notice that Rhea Ripley overextends her foot and gets it stuck on top of the rope. If you had actually kicked someone you would get some recoil that would help propel you backward and probably not get stuck on the rope. Although "there's a rope at shoulder-height adjacent to my target" is an unusual situation outside of fighting inside the squared circle, one thing I wondered about would be something along these lines happening with "narrow miss" or "narrow dodge" situations when a thrust kick is done to the head. If for example a thrusting kick missed the face by just an inch (you can feel the breeze on your year) one might conceivably overextend the foot and not be able to pull it back in time before the foot lowers on top of the shoulder and the heel gets caught, making it difficult to bring the foot back down. This seems like some kind of grappling situation so I'm wondering what people's thoughts might be on some kind of optional "miss by 1" rule with kicks to the face where if it goes off to the side like this, there's some risk of it counting like a successful "leg grapples torso and torso grapples leg" (both for zero control points per Technical Grappling) though the target has the option of dodging this via an active defense. I could see this maybe also happen on a successful kick to face which gets narrowly dodged (MoS zero) which might be desirable or undesirable for either party (ie who has the aura, etc) This wouldn't be a thing with punches since they aren't as awkward as high kicks since you could hold your hand up there indefinitely without it getting stuck (kicks rely on explosive momentum to go that high, usually: people can usually kick higher than they can actively hold their foot for seconds) Part of the issue here though is the effects of MoF1/MoS0 attacks/defenses might vary depending on what kind of kicking you're doing, even when it falls under the same technique. MA66: Almost every standing kick to a frontal target – including crescent, rising, side, and snap kicks – is a straight kicking attack at Karate-2 Even if these are the same damage-wise (whether you're doing a thrusting front kick or thrusting side kick to the front of the jaw, a snap kick to the bottom of the jaw, or a crescent kick to the side of the jaw) it might be interesting if we had different near-miss odds/outcomes depending on which of these things someone chose. A crescent kick for example you pretty much have to duck or lean back to avoid, you can't tilt your head to either side to dodge it, that'd probably just lessen the damage by making contact w/ the foot or shin too early or too late for max force. A narrow miss would either not extend far enough (wiff in front) or be too low (hits neck or shoulder) or too high (wiffs overhead). It would just be crunchtastic and interesting to have these kinds of variations for crescent kick outcomes differ from thrusting kicks. Snap kicks or thrusting front kicks I could als osee something like if you got stop-hitted by a wait you might be able to transform it into a knee strike? Not something you could do with an axe kick though. - - - Situation B = https://youtu.be/zhnsYxpO_sw If someone is clinging to your back and you want to back into a wall (or turnbuckle) to injure/stun them so they let go (or maybe cause Shock so the DX penalty makes it easier to Break Free) I'm not sure how to treat this. I would figure normally you can't "slam" someone who is doing a torso-on-torso grapple since there is no space between you to accelerate and cause impacts... I thought about MA118's "Kiss the Wall" which seems like the closest match but I don't really know how legal this is. When you see Ripley (tall, in black) smash the back of Morgan (short, in pink) into the turn buckle, Ripley is not actually using her hands to grapple Morgan's torso, meaning she doesn't fulfill the "If you’ve used two hands to grapple a foe" requirement of Kiss the Wall. Instead, Rhea is grabbing the ropes and using them to allow her to add the force of her arms to accelerate herself backward at a higher velocity than she'd be able to relying on just gravity/falling/tilting. You see this sometimes too when someone is "spearing" (shoulder tackle to gut) someone into a corner at close range: they can't get a running start so they grab the ropes and pull (using lats) themselves into the corner at a faster velocity than with legs alone. Do you think this type of thing would operate similar to a "grapple and strike" except instead of grappling the body part you are hitting (ie muai thai pulling opponent's head down into their knee strike) you are grabbing something directly behind (in the path of attack) your intended target? That seems like it should be able to add force/damage but that it would also be less accurate. You're basically relying on your opponent to be immobile so they don't change their position relative to what you are grappling. That works either if your opponent is stunned in the corner, or if they are grappling you and so you know "they are where I am". I really don't know how to handle this though... should you be able to "slam" someone by slamming another object (a wall, a turnbuckle) while they're clinging to you? This seems like it could cause all three of you damage... but I don't know how you deal with 3-way collisions like this. You see this sometimes in wrestling w/ tag team matches where instead of doing a single slam and letting the foe fly backward, your partner slams them from the other direction simultaneously, keeping them in place (negating knockback) and amplifying damage via a squish effect. I'll see if I can find some footage, pretty sure "the bouncers" on ROH or similar big-man teams like Heavy Machinery or War Machine (Viking Raiders) have done it. I'm thinking w/ a tag team that "we slam at the same time" idea might be covered by using Coordinated Attack (P166) to sum wounds, but I don't know how this would work if your tag team partner was a turnbuckle/wall.