How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? - Page 2

FF_Ninja · 12-27-2021, 10:47 PM

After reviewing some of the comments, I do want to take a moment to point out that just because a DM is a "pain professional" in any sense of the word, doesn't mean that they're not a friend or even someone in your regular social gaming circle.

Even something that's a labor of love can be worth compensation.

After re-reading some of the comments in a new light, I'm kind of starting to feel like maybe we undervalue our DMs if we expect that they'll show up and run some great content for free just because we're all buddies. Maybe that happens all the time, sure, and maybe DMs don't typically ask for compensation (the traditional pizza and Mt. Dew notwithstanding), but I posit that they may well be worth a cash stipend of some sort.

It also stands to reason that attaching a cash value to a service or creation in this day and age suggests an increased value of that service or creation to the one who created it and provides them with extra enthusiasm to create even more great content or service in the future - much in the same way that an artist realizes the value of his work when someone offers to pay for it.

Just some food for thought.

Edit: I meant "paid professional," but "pain professional" actually sounds like a description that also fits the bill so I kept it in.

RyanW · 12-28-2021, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Back in college days -- 40 years ago now -- when I was broke, a bunch of my players suggested paying me, and offered me a pretty handsome stipend for the day.

Several years ago, I had moved quite some distance, and the job I had moved for didn't work out, leaving me short of cash (I quickly got another job, but not as well paying as the one I had moved for). The folks I was regularly playing with before the move, frequently but not exclusively as GM, offered to chip in for gas to keep me around. I honestly can't remember whether I took them up on it, as the distance was just too great and I drifted out soon after.

Magic_Octopus · 12-28-2021, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

Would you be at all interested in utilizing a professional GM for GURPS?

Yes, if the game they were running interested me. Why? Because my local group has no interest in running GURPS, thus either I run it or it is not played. And I am not happy with my GMing skills, nor do I have the time to plan a game at the moment.

I haven't heard of pro GMs running anything other than D&D, but maybe they're out there. GURPS is interesting in that you can choose the genre. If not running for an established group would there be enough interested players for anything other than fantasy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

If you did hire a GM, what kind of skills and expertise would you expect them to bring to the table?

They would be working in the entertainment industry, so they'd have to be entertaining!
The ability run a game smoothly and fairly.
Leadership - firm but fair.
Professionalism - reliable, trustworthy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

What kind of wage do you think a GM should earn?

I compare it to any other paid professional - in Finland I expect a plumber, for example, to charge 50 euros per hour of work. If the GM charges that much, with a group of 5 players, a 4 hour session is 40 euros per player. Would I pay that for a monthly session? Maybe, but the quality would have to be excellent. I would more likely pay for short campaigns.

Remember that the pro GM needs to figure out a process for prepping without spending too much time on it, because no one is paying for that!

One of the biggest obstacles for this working for me is this (and this is just my personal opinion): roleplaying should be a collaborative effort. I don't think you can have a great game without good players. With a dynamic where the GM is expected to do all the work and the players just show up to be entertained, the end result, at best, can be mediocre. And the only genre where this can work is fairly straighforward fantasy, where the expectations are simple, general and predictable. And I'm not sure I'd pay much for that.

What I'm saying is that although I'd be willing to pay for "the great game that I want", I'm just one person, and the customers would need to all want the same thing.

trechriron · 12-28-2021, 02:48 AM

1. Yes.
2a. They should know the rules. Basic Set + any supplements and genre books they incorporate into the setting. If they want or it is requested for certain optional rules, those should also be understood. Proficiently.
2b. They should have a prepared setting and campaign. This should include guidance on character creation, what is or is not allowed, and the "style" of game being played.
2c. There should be templates.
3. I would posit $20/hour (US $), and a minimum of 5 hours for the game, so $100 for the GM divided amongst the players. 5 players would each pitch in $20, which is a cheap 5 hours of entertainment IMHO.

Personally, as a forever GM, I find the task can be daunting to be prepared enough to make myself comfortable. I can do a LOT of improv, but somethings just go better with stats.

I find that players are lazy. Some refuse to learn the rules or the setting and just show up to observe. Some complain anytime something bad happens (aka Adult Temper Tantrum Syndrome). I usually can count on maybe half the group participating at the level I'm participating. Which eventually demoralizes me and I lose interest.

Maybe if it was a JOB -- then I could overlook their participation (after all they are paying to just collect mold in a seat in the company of friends). I could focus on giving the best game I can and not worry about how much they involve themselves.

I certainly would NEVER run a game I don't like unless there was some compensation. I might do it for a friend that owns a game store, but even that would have to a limited engagement -- unless treasures awaited at the end of my suffering!! :-D

WingedKagouti · 12-28-2021, 03:13 AM

The only scenario where I can personally see a "professional GM" being useful is for a con with officially hosted scenarios. The players pay the con to participate and the con pays the GMs to host the scenarios.

I would never pay for a GM to host a scenario or campaign for myself and a group of friends. In that kind of setting I want to focus on having fun with friends, but if money is involved there's likely going to be some "we have to push through to get our money's worth" sentiment which puts a dampener on the social aspect.

khorboth · 12-28-2021, 08:32 AM

I might try a professional out of curiosity. I'd expect a high-quality, immersive experience. Good flow, and everyone included.

I would like to point out that your sample here is very skewed. The forumites are more GM than players overall and we tend to be more rules-adept than even your average GURPS player. We're not an accurate representation of GURPS players in general. So take your responses with a grain of salt.

ericthered · 12-28-2021, 08:42 AM

I think I have two cases. The first is a con setup, where it just sort of helps to smooth things out. The second would be a short demonstration campaign by a "Celebrity GM". A Celebrity GM would probably be a published rpg author, though a notable streamer or blogger would qualify as well, and some fantasy or science fiction authors would qualify as well... though a lot of those canidates have an official setting book or system to their name. A Celebrity GM game would be about personality and demonstration, not normal play... and It'd be a situation similar to a convention, if we look at all the angles.

Kalzazz · 12-28-2021, 11:45 AM

If I thought it was fabulous eh why not

As someone who considers myself a pretty good DM I would expect something 'next level' beyond the efforts I've seen from people I know personally

I can shoot a basketball, but I'll spend money to see the Harlem Globetrotters do it

How much money I'd spend depends on my feelings of amazingness involved

tshiggins · 12-28-2021, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

(SNIP)

My question has three parts:
[*]Would you be at all interested in utilizing a professional GM for GURPS?

Not just, "no," but, "hell no."

If I want a GURPS campaign, and nobody else wants to run one, I'll set it up, myself.
I enjoy world-building for its own sake, and have no shortage of players.

As for taking money to GM a game, that's an even more emphatic, "Hell, no!"
Table-top RPGs are supposed take place collaboratively, amongst friends who like and respect one another.

Compensation, in the form of anything other than a plate of food and a drink, is not something that should happen, between friends.

Quote:

[*]If you did hire a GM, what kind of skills and expertise would you expect them to bring to the table?

That would never happen, but I'd expect them to put at least as much time into world-building as I do, and (hopefully) know the rules, even better than me.

Quote:

[*]What kind of wage do you think a GM should earn?

None. This is a silly notion.

Donny Brook · 12-28-2021, 01:30 PM

I would expect a paid GM to know the most necessary rules with great fluency (combat, including options in MA; feats and hazards in Basic set; common difficulty modfiers and the system for quick and regular contests), plus know the campaign-relevant rulebooks well enough to look up less frequent matters with reasonable speed. He or she should also be alert to player inclusion and keeping the game flowing, and have a good grasp of the setting and the over-view of the campaign.

A sort of dream of mine would be someone who could create and run a campaign in one of the settings I have created. That's something I would consider paying for.

12-27-2021, 10:47 PM	#11
FF_Ninja Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? After reviewing some of the comments, I do want to take a moment to point out that just because a DM is a "pain professional" in any sense of the word, doesn't mean that they're not a friend or even someone in your regular social gaming circle. Even something that's a labor of love can be worth compensation. After re-reading some of the comments in a new light, I'm kind of starting to feel like maybe we undervalue our DMs if we expect that they'll show up and run some great content for free just because we're all buddies. Maybe that happens all the time, sure, and maybe DMs don't typically ask for compensation (the traditional pizza and Mt. Dew notwithstanding), but I posit that they may well be worth a cash stipend of some sort. It also stands to reason that attaching a cash value to a service or creation in this day and age suggests an increased value of that service or creation to the one who created it and provides them with extra enthusiasm to create even more great content or service in the future - much in the same way that an artist realizes the value of his work when someone offers to pay for it. Just some food for thought. Edit: I meant "paid professional," but "pain professional" actually sounds like a description that also fits the bill so I kept it in.

12-28-2021, 02:48 AM	#14
trechriron Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Yelm, WA	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? 1. Yes. 2a. They should know the rules. Basic Set + any supplements and genre books they incorporate into the setting. If they want or it is requested for certain optional rules, those should also be understood. Proficiently. 2b. They should have a prepared setting and campaign. This should include guidance on character creation, what is or is not allowed, and the "style" of game being played. 2c. There should be templates. 3. I would posit $20/hour (US $), and a minimum of 5 hours for the game, so $100 for the GM divided amongst the players. 5 players would each pitch in $20, which is a cheap 5 hours of entertainment IMHO. Personally, as a forever GM, I find the task can be daunting to be prepared enough to make myself comfortable. I can do a LOT of improv, but somethings just go better with stats. I find that players are lazy. Some refuse to learn the rules or the setting and just show up to observe. Some complain anytime something bad happens (aka Adult Temper Tantrum Syndrome). I usually can count on maybe half the group participating at the level I'm participating. Which eventually demoralizes me and I lose interest. Maybe if it was a JOB -- then I could overlook their participation (after all they are paying to just collect mold in a seat in the company of friends). I could focus on giving the best game I can and not worry about how much they involve themselves. I certainly would NEVER run a game I don't like unless there was some compensation. I might do it for a friend that owns a game store, but even that would have to a limited engagement -- unless treasures awaited at the end of my suffering!! :-D __________________ Trentin C Bergeron (trechriron)

12-28-2021, 03:13 AM	#15
WingedKagouti Join Date: Oct 2007	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? The only scenario where I can personally see a "professional GM" being useful is for a con with officially hosted scenarios. The players pay the con to participate and the con pays the GMs to host the scenarios. I would never pay for a GM to host a scenario or campaign for myself and a group of friends. In that kind of setting I want to focus on having fun with friends, but if money is involved there's likely going to be some "we have to push through to get our money's worth" sentiment which puts a dampener on the social aspect.

12-28-2021, 08:32 AM	#16
khorboth Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Denver, CO	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? I might try a professional out of curiosity. I'd expect a high-quality, immersive experience. Good flow, and everyone included. I would like to point out that your sample here is very skewed. The forumites are more GM than players overall and we tend to be more rules-adept than even your average GURPS player. We're not an accurate representation of GURPS players in general. So take your responses with a grain of salt.

12-28-2021, 08:42 AM	#17
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? I think I have two cases. The first is a con setup, where it just sort of helps to smooth things out. The second would be a short demonstration campaign by a "Celebrity GM". A Celebrity GM would probably be a published rpg author, though a notable streamer or blogger would qualify as well, and some fantasy or science fiction authors would qualify as well... though a lot of those canidates have an official setting book or system to their name. A Celebrity GM game would be about personality and demonstration, not normal play... and It'd be a situation similar to a convention, if we look at all the angles. __________________ Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!

12-28-2021, 11:45 AM	#18
Kalzazz Join Date: Feb 2009	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? If I thought it was fabulous eh why not As someone who considers myself a pretty good DM I would expect something 'next level' beyond the efforts I've seen from people I know personally I can shoot a basketball, but I'll spend money to see the Harlem Globetrotters do it How much money I'd spend depends on my feelings of amazingness involved

12-28-2021, 01:30 PM	#20
Donny Brook Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Snoopy's basement	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? I would expect a paid GM to know the most necessary rules with great fluency (combat, including options in MA; feats and hazards in Basic set; common difficulty modfiers and the system for quick and regular contests), plus know the campaign-relevant rulebooks well enough to look up less frequent matters with reasonable speed. He or she should also be alert to player inclusion and keeping the game flowing, and have a good grasp of the setting and the over-view of the campaign. A sort of dream of mine would be someone who could create and run a campaign in one of the settings I have created. That's something I would consider paying for.