How do you hurt a good fighter?

[Steev]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Campaigns 369.

I’m an idiot - thanks!!

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Crit fishing was reliably the best choice in 3e which didn't have deceptive attack and did have the possibility of PD 7+.

Nobody bothered with Feint? I was never clear when considering the range for that if you could take into account a possible step you might take even if you didn't take it.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Plane

Nobody bothered with Feint?

Feint in 3e was only useful for killing people who were significant worse than you. Feint in 4e is only useful if you're fighting someone significantly worse than you where you need to stab them in the eye to hurt them. Against someone with comparable skill to you, one feint plus one attack is pretty much always worse than attacking twice.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Feint in 3e was only useful for killing people who were significant worse than you. Feint in 4e is only useful if you're fighting someone significantly worse than you where you need to stab them in the eye to hurt them. Against someone with comparable skill to you, one feint plus one attack is pretty much always worse than attacking twice.

Hmm... I wonder if there's justification to change Feint to be something that is done in the same maneuver (avoiding a lot of the oddities associated with actually gaming it out) but with less of a penalty than a Rapid Strike. I'm thinking it normally takes up as much time as half your Move - thus, Move and Attack allows you to make a Feint prior to making an attack if you drop to half Move, All Out Attack allows it if you give up all the movement that Maneuver allows. Alternatively, you can take a -4 to each of the Feint and the Attack(s), similar to Dual Weapon Attack. As an additional option, you can opt to give up a Step to reduce the penalty to only -2. Anything that modifies all attacks for the round - such as going All Out (Committed) for +4, using Rapid Strike for -6 (-3 with TbaM/WM), etc - but not things that affect individual attacks - like Deceptive Attack - also applies to the Feint. The Feint Technique would only add to the Feint roll, and I don't think I'd allow for a Technique that reduced the penalty to the Attack roll (that way, you can't invest a few points and make it so every attack is a Feint and Attack), although I might be able to be convinced to allow one that could reduce the penalty to -2 (so you have to either take a penalty or give up your Step). Such a Feint would only apply to attacks taken during the same Maneuver as the Feint (just like when you trade an attack for a Feint under the current system).

EDIT: It occurs to me that an easier way to describe the option is that, when you trade an attack for a feint, this gives a +2 to the feint and any attack made during the same Manuever. Only when doing a Feint, you may trade a Step for a further +2, or if you are able to move at half Move or greater, you may trade half Move for a further +4 instead. These benefits are cut in half for characters with Trained by a Master or Weapon Master (otherwise, you could feint and attack at net +1 by giving up a Step, in which case you'd basically do that any time you don't have to Step).

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Hmm... I wonder if there's justification to change Feint to be something that is done in the same maneuver (avoiding a lot of the oddities associated with actually gaming it out) but with less of a penalty than a Rapid Strike. I'm thinking it normally takes up as much time as half your Move - thus, Move and Attack allows you to make a Feint prior to making an attack if you drop to half Move, All Out Attack allows it if you give up all the movement that Maneuver allows. Alternatively, you can take a -4 to each of the Feint and the Attack(s), similar to Dual Weapon Attack. As an additional option, you can opt to give up a Step to reduce the penalty to only -2. Anything that modifies all attacks for the round - such as going All Out (Committed) for +4, using Rapid Strike for -6 (-3 with TbaM/WM), etc - but not things that affect individual attacks - like Deceptive Attack - also applies to the Feint. The Feint Technique would only add to the Feint roll, and I don't think I'd allow for a Technique that reduced the penalty to the Attack roll (that way, you can't invest a few points and make it so every attack is a Feint and Attack), although I might be able to be convinced to allow one that could reduce the penalty to -2 (so you have to either take a penalty or give up your Step). Such a Feint would only apply to attacks taken during the same Maneuver as the Feint (just like when you trade an attack for a Feint under the current system).

EDIT: It occurs to me that an easier way to describe the option is that, when you trade an attack for a feint, this gives a +2 to the feint and any attack made during the same Manuever. Only when doing a Feint, you may trade a Step for a further +2, or if you are able to move at half Move or greater, you may trade half Move for a further +4 instead. These benefits are cut in half for characters with Trained by a Master or Weapon Master (otherwise, you could feint and attack at net +1 by giving up a Step, in which case you'd basically do that any time you don't have to Step).

This all seems a bit unnecessary since we have Deceptive Attacks, but for another similar alternative see Setup Attacks, from Pyramid #3/52, "Delayed Gratification."

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Hmm... I wonder if there's justification to change Feint to be something that is done in the same maneuver

That's one explanation for deceptive attack. 4e basically fixed feint by introducing a replacement.

[Varyon]

I've created a new thread for anyone who wants to discuss my Feint digression (and included some further thoughts on it), so we needn't clutter this thread up with it.