[DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

But the answers in Spells still aren't wholly satisfactory, because it indicates areas of no mana should be plot-device level rare—which causes real problems for explaining how PCs are ever supposed to (permanently) defeat a lich.

Are liches random encounters in DFRPG? Typically, one would expect a lich to have a role as a lasting, serious antagonist - you don't run into and kill a lich on the way to grab some treasure, you have a longterm quest to take him out. And, of course, the way you do so is by either capturing him somehow and dragging him to the plot-device NMZ, or encountering him near the plot-device NMZ (maybe he has some nefarious plan associated with it) and maneuver him into it before killing him. That, or you just move on to a different area and ignore the lich, like a proper murder-hobo (heroism is overrated).

Of course, if one can create temporary NMZ's (with an appropriate spell, power, scroll, artifact, etc), then you just need one of those (although acquiring such may well be a quest unto itself).

Originally Posted by Taneli

Roll 3d6 for each area that comes up and hasn't been resolved yet. High number indicates high mana, low number indicates low mana, 18 means very high mana and 3 means no mana.

I like this idea, although it may make NMZ's a bit too rare for Dependencies to come into play. Most places should probably be normal mana, of course. So, a rough draft might look like this:

Roll (Freq)	Mana Level
3-4 (1.85%)	None
5-7 (14.3%)	Low
8-13 (67.6%)	Normal
14-16 (14.3%)	High
17-18 (1.85%)	Very High

Alternatively, you could roll 1d20, and use the following, which I think I like the distribution of a bit more:

Roll (Freq)	Mana Level
1 (5%)		None
2-4 (15%)	Low
5-16 (60%)	Normal
17-19 (15%)	High
20 (5%)		Very High

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

Drain Mana is available to PI 6 clerics (who don't have Magery to lose), Suspend Mana is at PI 5, and scrolls are available to lich hunters.

This is a good point. Leaving these spells out of DFRPG may have been a pretty major error, at least as far as lich-slaying goes.

Originally Posted by Taneli

Roll 3d6 for each area that comes up and hasn't been resolved yet. High number indicates high mana, low number indicates low mana, 18 means very high mana and 3 means no mana.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I like this idea, although it may make NMZ's a bit too rare for Dependencies to come into play. Most places should probably be normal mana, of course. So, a rough draft might look like this:

Roll (Freq)	Mana Level
3-4 (1.85%)	None
5-7 (14.3%)	Low
8-13 (67.6%)	Normal
14-16 (14.3%)	High
17-18 (1.85%)	Very High

Alternatively, you could roll 1d20, and use the following, which I think I like the distribution of a bit more:

Roll (Freq)	Mana Level
1 (5%)		None
2-4 (15%)	Low
5-16 (60%)	Normal
17-19 (15%)	High
20 (5%)		Very High

I like the idea of doing something along these lines, though if you do it for every patch of wilderness it might actually lead to too many very high and no mana zones. It might work for dungeons, where it's plausible both that (1) the dungeon might have been deliberately constructed somewhere with variant mana levels and (2) weird stuff might have happened in the dungeon's history to change the mana levels. For placing high/low mana levels over a wider area, I might do something like, "okay, for each temple important enough to have high/low sanctity, I'll place 1d random high/low mana areas, most likely in the surrounding countryside but in rare cases in the same settlement as the temple."

Originally Posted by Varyon

Are liches random encounters in DFRPG? Typically, one would expect a lich to have a role as a lasting, serious antagonist - you don't run into and kill a lich on the way to grab some treasure, you have a longterm quest to take him out. And, of course, the way you do so is by either capturing him somehow and dragging him to the plot-device NMZ, or encountering him near the plot-device NMZ (maybe he has some nefarious plan associated with it) and maneuver him into it before killing him. That, or you just move on to a different area and ignore the lich, like a proper murder-hobo (heroism is overrated).

Of course, if one can create temporary NMZ's (with an appropriate spell, power, scroll, artifact, etc), then you just need one of those (although acquiring such may well be a quest unto itself).

Pagoda of Worlds does use liches as random encounters. Even setting that aside, capturing and transporting a powerful spellcaster to a no-mana area seems like ultra-hard mode even by the standards of RPG Big Bads. You can of course just have the lich voluntarily go near the NMZ for whatever reason but unless your story behind that is really good players may roll their eyes at the villain's stupidity.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Pagoda of Worlds does use liches as random encounters. Even setting that aside, capturing and transporting a powerful spellcaster to a no-mana area seems like ultra-hard mode even by the standards of RPG Big Bads. You can of course just have the lich voluntarily go near the NMZ for whatever reason but unless your story behind that is really good players may roll their eyes at the villain's stupidity.

What happens to a DFRPG lich when reduced to -10xHP? Unless they come back extremely quickly (or literally cannot be stopped without an NMZ), I don't think you'd actually need to outright destroy one to get past it - destroy its body, move on before it grows another one. If the GM decides it holds a grudge against you and decides to come after you... well, that's an arc villain. If they have something more akin to Unkillable 2 than Unkillable 3, of course, you've just got to "kill" them, then carry their remains to an NMZ (hacking at them every so often to prevent regeneration) and unceremoniously dump them there. And yeah, a lich would need a really good reason to be near an NMZ, but that should be doable (maybe the MacGuffin it's searching for is in the area, or even within the NMZ and the lich wants to be close by as soon as its servants retrieve it).

[Anthony]

You can also dispose of a lich using non-damage methods; casting entombment seems uniquely appropriate, and flesh to stone will work if the GM is willing to consider a lich a valid target for the spell.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Varyon

What happens to a DFRPG lich when reduced to -10xHP? Unless they come back extremely quickly (or literally cannot be stopped without an NMZ), I don't think you'd actually need to outright destroy one to get past it - destroy its body, move on before it grows another one. If the GM decides it holds a grudge against you and decides to come after you... well, that's an arc villain. If they have something more akin to Unkillable 2 than Unkillable 3, of course, you've just got to "kill" them, then carry their remains to an NMZ (hacking at them every so often to prevent regeneration) and unceremoniously dump them there. And yeah, a lich would need a really good reason to be near an NMZ, but that should be doable (maybe the MacGuffin it's searching for is in the area, or even within the NMZ and the lich wants to be close by as soon as its servants retrieve it).

Even that may not be enough. LIches by their very nature (or at least the D&D version) have Unkillable 3 as their souls are actually in a phylactery. If the lich is using the "Blueprint for a Lich" (Dragon #26, June, 1979) playbook than they will have a well preserved dead body within 90 feet of the phylactery as a back up.

Put the current body into a NMZ and the connection between soul and body is severed and the soul just hops from the phylactery to the waiting corpse. Worst yet D&D liches will teleport to their phylactery before getting to the point where they will be unable to do so.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by maximara

Even that may not be enough.

It is for the version written up in DFRPG; it has unkillable 3 with an achilles heel.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by maximara

Even that may not be enough. LIches by their very nature (or at least the D&D version) have Unkillable 3 as their souls are actually in a phylactery. If the lich is using the "Blueprint for a Lich" (Dragon #26, June, 1979) playbook than they will have a well preserved dead body within 90 feet of the phylactery as a back up.

Put the current body into a NMZ and the connection between soul and body is severed and the soul just hops from the phylactery to the waiting corpse. Worst yet D&D liches will teleport to their phylactery before getting to the point where they will be unable to do so.

While I don't have the relevant DFRPG book to check their stats there, I did check the stats for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy liches (from Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1). Those do indeed have Unkillable 3, but no mention of a phylactery, and no traits that improve their healing rate (indeed, they actually don't heal at all while corporeal). So, if you encounter one randomly, you could indeed just beat it down to -10xHP, ideally with Crushing weapons (which deal double damage, and readily shatter limbs... although liches generally don't need those to cast spells). That's by no means easy, particularly considering that, while they don't have much HP (only 10), they've got a lot of spells at high skill levels, a large ER to draw on, and typically have an army of undead supporting them (their description mentions them being able to body hop to said undead if their body is destroyed, but they don't seem to have any trait that would allow this, nor are any rules given for when and how this happens). But considering any lich who's body you do destroy isn't going to be around for a few months (with HT 14, it should take the lich a bit under 120 days to recover the 110 HP of Injury it took to destroy it), unless it's a particularly large dungeon (or the GM opts to turn the lich into an arc villain, as I mentioned upthread), destroying it once is probably enough to avoid ever needing to deal with it again.

Then again, the lich also lacks any traits that would allow it to avoid consciousness checks below HP 0. So, drop it below 0, wait for it to pass out (with HT 14, that would take on average around 11 seconds to happen - but dropping its HP further worsens the roll, so you could drop it to -4xHP and it will likely fail within 2 seconds), and now you've got an unconscious lich on your hands. Normally, said lich would get a chance to awaken each hour, but if you got it below -1xHP (or just beat on it some more once it's unconscious - might as well break off all its arms and legs), it gets a single chance at 12 hours to wake up, or it never will until either some necromancer comes along to fix it up or it gets destroyed. Again, with HT 14 it's got a pretty good chance of waking up, but then you just bash its skull against the ground and it'll pass out for another 12 hours (with another chance to get trapped in a coma) in short order (at least until you manage to damage it enough that it's destroyed). That should make it possible to transport it to the nearest NMZ for disposal. I suspect the authors of DFM1 didn't really intend for this to be a legitimate means of permanently destroying the lich, however (indeed, I think most authors who give a monster Unkillable expect it to keep fighting until it reaches -10xHP, not pass out halfway there).

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Then again, the lich also lacks any traits that would allow it to avoid consciousness checks below HP 0. So, drop it below 0, wait for it to pass out (with HT 14, that would take on average around 11 seconds to happen - but dropping its HP further worsens the roll, so you could drop it to -4xHP and it will likely fail within 2 seconds), and now you've got an unconscious lich on your hands.

I doubt it is going to be that easy. If the lich suspects it is in danger of passing out it will use any appropriate spells to get out of the situation.

Interestingly the Fantasy Lich does not have Unkillable which is...weird.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by maximara

I doubt it is going to be that easy. If the lich suspects it is in danger of passing out it will use any appropriate spells to get out of the situation.

Provided it can cast them quickly enough, yes. While I said "wait for it to pass out," what's more likely is that you'd continue to press the attack - not only does this make it difficult for the lich to continue casting spells (at least those with duration over a second, although once you've removed its arms and legs you could probably do Wait: Attack as soon as it starts casting a spell*), but every multiple of HP you drop it makes it more likely that it will pass out. Then again, with Will 18, the lich has a pretty good chance of just ignoring any such distraction (rolling against 15); Stunning will let you bypass that high Will, and it's not too difficult for many DF characters to deal a Major Wound to a lich (5 cr, 6 cut, or 8 burn/imp will do it), but with HT 14 and no hit locations to penalize this, it can't be relied upon either.

Of course, if the lich is losing and retreats... no more lich. Again, the GM could turn it into a vengeful arc villain, but unless the PC's opt to pursue it, a lich that was driven to retreat is going to be best served just cutting its losses and giving the party a wide berth (also, it may well take quite some time for it to heal itself, if it even can given the penalty to Healing spells cast on oneself while injured). Note here we're talking about a random encounter with a lich, where the lack of NMZ's is the most problematic (for a major villain, part of the "destroy the lich" quest is figuring out a way to actually get the lich to an NMZ, or finding some other way of bypassing their Unkillable 3).

*With most (or all) of its spells at Skill 20 or higher, it doesn't need to gesture or speak to cast a spell, just concentrate. I'm not sure someone watching would be able to even realize the lich were casting a spell, at least in time to disrupt it. But if they can, that above Wait should work.

Originally Posted by maximara

Interestingly the Fantasy Lich does not have Unkillable which is...weird.

It may be the idea there is immortality in the sense of not dying from old age, rather than being unable to be killed. It's odd if the template doesn't even have Unkillable 1 - I think most GURPS undead either have at least that (you've got to destroy them outright for them to stay dead) or Fragile: Unnatural.