[Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

[Willy]

I hope this helps. In technomancer the number of words for a single spell is around 20.000 Words for mental hard spells, mental very hard have more.

If you plan to work without writing, and literacy appears long time later, you need your mages at least memorize large parts of there grimoire. You can do this without eidetic memory, but it will take a long time to learn. The celtic druids had a learning time of 20 years before the were considered finished. Of course high levels of magery shorten the necessary time span a lot.

Also in earlier time many sages and bards had learned learning techniques to memorize there songs, storys etc. Some of the greatest storys in history have been a long time only existed from mouth to mouth like the illias.

As for tade routes, even in the neolithic europe had some good researched routes all over the continent. Tin, salt and luxury goods travelled far, even before that firestone and other stones good for making tools and weapons were traded. Some raw unworked stones were transported over several 100km, in part british stones appeared in south europe.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Willy

I hope this helps. In technomancer the number of words for a single spell is around 20.000 Words for mental hard spells, mental very hard have more.

IMHO Technomancer is not a good model as explained in the GURPSwiki:

On page 77's sidebar it is stated that Voodoo's Ritual Magic doesn't exist on Merlin-1. The problem is not only is the later Spirits version of Ritual Magic substantially different from Voodoo's but both are different from Ritual Magic in 4e. Voodoo used Initiation, Spirits used Ritual Adept to reduce components, and neither used Magery or mana.

GURPS 4e split aspects of Voodoo's magic system: Power Investiture took the idea of eliminating mana (but replaced it with Sanctity) while Magery (Ritual) took the path mechanics but retained the mana requirement.

In short they are different enough that saying Initiation Ritual Magic doesn't exist on Merlin-1 is NOT the same as saying Ritual Adept and Magery (Ritual Magic) don't exist on Merlin-1.
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Roma Arcana has mana being "free" spirits with deities and it is thought that something more along what would fall under GURPS' symbol magic with ritual magic elements existed in the stone age.

It would be more along the lines of painting the last successful hunt on a cave wall as a spell to make the next hunt more successful than a series of words.

[Anders]

There's this mysterious stalagmite stone circle built by Neanderthals in France. We have no idea why, but I think it was a team-building exercise.

[munin]

Another way to look at it is the cost of inventing spells. RAW, inventing a spell with no prereqs would require a workshop worth $12,000 (Magic, p. 15; energy cost at TL0 is $33*625/700 = about $30), where $1,200 is consumables per spell invention. At TL0, $12,000 is the starting wealth of 96 struggling-wealth people or 240 poor people. So it would require a tribe of people to basically give everything they have (not just luxuries but tools, tents, etc.) to the shaman to let them create a spell invention "workshop" (a TL0 workshop might be as mobile as the tribe, or it might be fixed location the shaman returns to).

Maybe more realistically, a comfortable-wealth shaman could save up for 20 years ($1,250 monthly pay - $1,200 cost of living = $50/month for saving) to establish their workshop, but could then produce zero-prereq spells every 2 years or so (and then pass on the workshop to their apprentice).

But then the cost of inventing a spell with a single prereq doubles that cost, etc. By the time you're up to 4-prereq spells or so, establishing a workshop would require over a century of savings. That's probably going to need to wait until TL1 city-states for concentration of wealth and patronage.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by munin

Another way to look at it is the cost of inventing spells. RAW, inventing a spell with no prereqs would require a workshop worth $12,000 (Magic, p. 15; energy cost at TL0 is $33*625/700 = about $30), where $1,200 is consumables per spell invention.

Uh. The flaw in that reasoning is on Magic, p. 20: "For a typical TL3 fantasy setting with plentiful wizardry and shops full of magic items, it should be possible to commission a magic item for about $33 per energy point. "

Paut elixir suggests that the material cost and sale price of 1 energy point is based 1/100 and 1/30 of a TL's base starting income respectively. (Thaumatology pg 52)

So that $33 market price is the rounding of $1k/30 (production is $10) for a specially commissioned item.

TL0 is $500 so production cost is $5 and commissioned retail is $16⅔

More over I seriously doubt spells as GURPS magic describes them would even exist at TL0. Symbol Magic and its bigger cousin Syntactic Magic as well as Craft Magic would more logically be king.

The flexibility of Syntactic/Symbol Magic makes developing new "spells" (new combinations) child's play once your people have developed a decent amount of nouns and verbs and symbols for them.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by maximara

More over I seriously doubt spells as GURPS magic describes them would even exist at TL0. Symbol Magic and its bigger cousin Syntactic Magic as well as Craft Magic would more logically be king.

The flexibility of Syntactic/Symbol Magic makes developing new "spells" (new combinations) child's play once your people have developed a decent amount of nouns and verbs and symbols for them.

While I prefer Syntactic, Symbolic, and Path/Book magics, this thread assumes that the standard system is in use, and if they were using Syntactic or Symbolic already, there would be little reason to switch over to the standard system.

I do agree with you on the effective prices being much lower ('effective' because money wasn't invented yet in TL0).

EDIT: For purposes of this thread, assume that it is very much possible to invent new spells without a lab, it's just harder. However, most spells in the early parts of TL0 were created (sometimes repeatedly) by someone having Wild Talent with Retention, being born with the Charm perk for that spell, or some other bypass. Also, not sure if it's said in the books, but I tend to assume that magical research is easier the higher the local mana level is (and that Aspected mana affects this, as it affects casting).

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

While I prefer Syntactic, Symbolic, and Path/Book magics, this thread assumes that the standard system is in use, and if they were using Syntactic or Symbolic already, there would be little reason to switch over to the standard system.

This is exactly one of my issues with Merlin-1 (Technomancer) Syntactic or Symbolic magic should have been the rule given "The first people who tried to cast spells were those who had been doing so all along: Voudounistas, shamans, practitioners of witchcraft and ceremonial magic, and those who believed they had psychic powers. If they were one of the few pre- Hellstorm mages, their disciplines began to produce repeatable effects. "

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I do agree with you on the effective prices being much lower ('effective' because money wasn't invented yet in TL0).

It is important to remember that "money" is only an intermediary good when barter just isn't up to it.

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

EDIT: For purposes of this thread, assume that it is very much possible to invent new spells without a lab, it's just harder. However, most spells in the early parts of TL0 were created (sometimes repeatedly) by someone having Wild Talent with Retention, being born with the Charm perk for that spell, or some other bypass. Also, not sure if it's said in the books, but I tend to assume that magical research is easier the higher the local mana level is (and that Aspected mana affects this, as it affects casting).

I know that for alchemy with regards to very high mana that is the case. Thaumatology suggests using the New Inventions (B473-474) rules for spells. But I think for what you want Classic: Ice Age might be our go to.

Classic: Ice Age had a whole chapter on Shamanism and Magic. Some snippets:

"Spirits are creatures made up entirely of mana. ... They are highly intelligent and can be bargained with by powerful shamans who can command their respect."

"Magic items in shamanistic magic are not tools manufactured by wizards. Rather, they have inherent magical or spiritual power, affecting anyone who touches or uses them. Such items are very rare, and always natural in origin, though they may have been reshaped by humans. "

The book says it provides 16 spells for the Pleistocene Epoch (2,580,000 to 11,700 years ago) but if you count them you only get 15 not 16. (7 on one page 8 on the other.):

Aura, Banish, Bless, Curse, Death Vision, Divination (3 types), Exorcism, Healing, Pestilence, Remove Curse, Remove Pestilent Object, Spirit Trap, and Summon Spirit. Of these only 5 don't require Magery 2.

So this points to very small spell books until Pre-Pottery Neolithic ~10,000 years ago. This makes some sense as Mesolithic (8500 BCE+, or close to your Pre-Pottery Neolithic) has when food storage, houses, and settled communities appear. (pg 6) This would allow the building of labs to do more spell research.