[DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

[Tymathee]

Hmm, well, I figured the ratios would vary from game to game but I figured for the sake of hypotheticals I'd assume an even split for a future game I'm not playing in yet.

The reaction penalties are largely worked around assuming the Thief (or whoever invests in Disguise) helps you sneak in... I'm sure the GM would want to be sure to make this not always be a effective solution. This is a legitimate tactic.

If there's a intelligent, universally horrific looking monster walking about, one might assume there are in fact other intelligent, universally horrific looking monsters within the game world. Naturally, perhaps they form small communities in which they're not subjected to prejudice. If everyone is a horrific monster, no one is a horrific monster. Hence "very infrequent".

The reaction penalty for wielding Black Magical energy is distinct from the social stigma of being undead. If he suddenly stopped being undead (perhaps like The Lich as shown in the video I pulled my quote from in my sig), he's still going to be wielding Black Magical energy. That suddenly stopping being undead, or losing his Lich template in play, would give reason to regain FP access again and a reason to ensure that's not option reflected in the -80%.

Oswald, in particular, has energy that restores at 1 point an hour. Recover Energy quickens this to 1 point to 12 minutes. One might assume a Power Item would be highly valuable now.

There's those other small quibbles, but I've spent what seems like already a year and then some rigorously developing and balancing this character during my all too much free time during the pandemic. I know that's not an excuse to not further more strictly balance the character but I feel that enough is enough more or less at this point, and from what you're saying it seems to be the case.

[Tymathee]

This is going into the esoteric nature of morality, so bear with me.

By default, in general GURPS assumes being Evil to be no more consequential than Good. A Kromm quote verifies this to be definitely the case for DF.

Under these assumptions, sure, Evil is not a meaningful limiting factor for abilities built on points.

Lets be quite frank though. If you made such a statement in reality about morality (as GURPS as a whole assumes and DF especially emphasizes), you would be considered to be someone who is quite possibly a sociopath.

This also has huge implications for the default morality assumptions that DF makes on your behalf. If true Evil is no more consequential than Good, then why not just toss aside all meaningful morals and be a totally deplorable murder hobo?

For Magery, I make the case that it is in fact a meaningful limiting factor because for the average DF game it legitimately restricts when and where you are capable of casting magic.

Oswald is not a complete sociopath. Among many other pop culture inspirations, he takes after Liliana Vess of the MTG Multiverse. I was especially inspired by this video. I especially want Oswald, in his character development over the course of the campaign, to ponder upon the lasting consequences of his past choices.

"...but in the end, it doesn't even matter." - lyrics from the music of the video

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Designer's Notes

- Nuisance Effect, -20%: -4 to reactions. The eerie light is readily identifiable by anyone as capital E Evil, regardless of whether they have a spell or ability to detect Evil.

This actually needs rebalancing. "The eerie light is readily identifiable by anyone as capital E Evil, regardless of whether they have a spell or ability to detect Evil" should be it's own Nuisance Effect -5%. Doing some research into example Nuisance Effects and this seems to be on par with a -5% Nuisance Effect.

Knowing that the reaction modifier should consequently be brought down from -4 to -3.

So:

- Nuisance Effect, -20%: -3 to reactions. The eerie light is identifiable by anyone as capital E Evil, regardless of whether they have a ability or spell to detect Evil.

[Tymathee]

I've been thinking about how to value the "limited spellcasting" aspect because of his magic being evil.

With basic default assumptions of 50% Town/50% Dungeons w/ "Travel Montages", roughly 50% of his spellcasting opportunities are very nearly prohibited. We can interpret this as a -50% modifier. We could interpret the clever loopholes (Rooms at an Inn with everything sealed tight, dug up holes to hide in and cover up... etc.) as taking off 10% from that perhaps. So -40%.

If we take Celjabba's rough math, we have a -80% modifier now.

This is my best attempt at quantifying the social ramifications of using Black Magical energy with Magery.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

With basic default assumptions of 50% Town/50% Dungeons w/ "Travel Montages", roughly 50% of his spellcasting opportunities are very nearly prohibited. We can interpret this as a -50% modifier.

There is a mistake there.

A general rules for limitations is that "available 50% of the time" is a -20% limitation, not -50%.

See Accessibility in Basic p110 and Power-up 8 p4

A -40% limitation is for an ability available less than 5% of the time, a -50% for 1/10000 situations.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

There is a mistake there.

A general rules for limitations is that "available 50% of the time" is a -20% limitation, not -50%.

See Accessibility in Basic p110 and Power-up 8 p4

A -40% limitation is for an ability available less than 5% of the time, a -50% for 1/10000 situations.

Hmm, good catch. It's hard trying to keep all these details in mind, that's why I've got the forums to tell me what I'm missing. Researching the material is hard. :^)

I just want to make sure I've got it at -80%, and no more than that. I wouldn't want to put what might effectively be -100% or more in Limitations. Wouldn't be good to overcompensate.

With that in mind, if we go by your numbers, it's totaled out at -60% at least. The -20% neatly matches up with the Evil modifier in Powers (just noticed that!) even though it's much more like a Accessibility modifier as you said.

I'll think about that other -20%...

[Tymathee]

I think taking off +10% for "Clever loopholes" is more or less counterbalanced by "Flirting with death by lynch mob" -10%, for a net wash, so what amounts to a -20% modifier does sound right.

I think I might want to re-scrutinize the numbers I was working off of before when I calculated the -80%. I think there's a case to be made for denying access to the cinematic Power Item rules. If not for them, characters would need to pay points to require and replace a Energy Reserve with the appropriate Gadget limitations and a form of Special Recharge... that's quite harsh though, so a equivalent Unusual Background (set to a equivalent value to the highest Energy Reserve built with the previously mentioned Limitations, although you might assume the Power Items would obviously go beyond only storing 40 energy...) would probably suffice for most GMs. By flipping that to a Disadvantage, No Unusual Background (Power Items) [-40], we can figure what amounts to a -40%.

What we have is arguably -40% + -40% + -20% = -100% in Limitations, but that only still brings us to [2] per level of Magery. And since in the grand scheme of things (applying Talent costing brings that 10 point Magery to 15 points, and smooth Talent costing as per the Talents book makes that hundreds) it is quite fair. That extra -20% over -80% and the aggressively balanced "training expenses" rules being enforced make this very balanced.

[Tymathee]

This very much reflects my own personal tastes I suppose, but the Power Item rules very much explicitly express "Money equals Power". That's a very treacherous path to be taking with game rules... but they're a part of the default rules for DF, so it is what it is.

My mind naturally wants to take this to its natural conclusion. Evil Wizards would've wanted to get ahold of whatever magitech the Wizard's Guild is using to empower Power Items at the price of some cheap movie theater popcorn per point of energy.

Perhaps the Evil Wizards, some long time ago, took and ran with the secrets to this magitech and developed a wicked item of power. I envision a top-heavy staff, it's wood blackened with the taint of Evil, a sinister metal chamber at the top of it with indestructible glass panels letting the user see inside. The wielder may open the chamber to insert an amount of coin and valuable gems. As the wielder casts their magic, they may draw upon the energy from this staff. As energy is required, the coins and gems inside the chamber whirl about, converting into black magical energy to power the Evil Wizard's spells.

Such an item should probably cost as least as much as twice of what a 40 energy Power Item would cost, and it's a item exclusively usable only by a Wizard who is a Evil Wizard because they (at minimum) invested points into Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) and/or the Magery with the appropriate modifier.

It'd probably be a very near the end of campaign item, probably to be found at the bottom of a lengthy dungeon meant to test the true mettle of Evil Wizards and their adventuring companions. Of course, Oswald doesn't have access to external energy sources but I imagine the GM would be fair enough to allow the "no Power Items" aspect to be bought off over the course of the campaign.

[Tymathee]

Just an alternative number crunching for the modifier for Magery.

"Can't Use External Energy", for -15%, limits you to internal energy, or ER, FP, and HP. If we cut out FP (What better way to hose a Lich than to take away their lichdom?) and HP, that's 2/3 more limiting. We can reinterpret this as a 70% increase to -15%, or what is now a -25% modifier.

What about taking into account the ubiquity of external energy sources?

Every Wizard has the option to begin the game with their own personal Power Item, that much is known already. They can be recharged at Town for small change, or replaced with a improved Power Item at Town, or a existing Power Item can be improved with additional items to add value for a greater store of energy.

If Paut is something that can be purchased during char gen to put on your equipment loadout as well, it could be assumed that it ought to be purchasable at any Ye Olde Magic Shoppe in any Town. Healing Potions indirectly function as a external energy source, as HP can be burned to power spells. Like Paut, you can pick it up to add to your equipment loadout during char gen, and considering the genre it could be safely assumed to be as equally ubiquitous as well and purchasable at any Ye Olde Magic Shoppe... or even more likely to be bought at what amounts to a "fantasy general merchandise store" that's pretty ubiquitous within fantasy gaming. Adventurers makes a point of mentioning the availability of items, e.g. as noted under Basics, Special Orders, and Magic Items, etc.. Concoctions notes that "Dungeon fantasy wouldn’t be complete without delvers swilling healing and strength potions...", so it can be inferred that consumables like Healing Potions and Paut are very ubiquitous, and given the typical party size of 3-5 adventurers stores will likely stock them accordingly.

I think it is safe to assume high ubiquity of external energy sources, and the DF material certainly suggests that. We can figure this to probably be valued at increasing the -25% by another -40%. I figure the -40% as per pricing for a Accessibility modifier... it could be safely assumed with default DF assumptions that 95% of the time Town is stocked with consumables appropriate for the typical adventuring party, and that Town has a Druid's Circle/Temple/Wizard's Guild to empower your Power Item. -40% seems right.

Then there's taking into account the social ramifications of wielding black magical energy with Magery. Contrary to what appears to be a morality system that incentives murder-hoboery, I'm going to insist that Evil has meaningful consequences. Realistically you can't just cast Evil magic any where at any time... assuming a healthy default of 50% Town roleplaying and 50% Dungeon roleplaying with the minimum "Travel Montages" (and even if we assume at least the basic travel rules, I do not think it moves the needle too far in terms of risk vs. reward), we already arrived at what amounts to a -20% modifier. "Clever loopholes to avoid social fallout" is balanced by "Flirting with death by lynch mob" for a net wash, so that's still -20%.

So -25% + -40% + -20% = -85%. I think this is a much better reasoned net modifier for Magery.

[Tymathee]

It just occurred to me the question of "Doesn't the auto-detection of the "eerie light" as Evil nullify meaningfulness of the reaction modifier?" might come up. No, it wouldn't actually. If he encounters other Evil entities, they'll still react at -3 to the eerie light even though they don't care that it's Evil. Evil has standards... and any Evil Wizard who's acquired black magical energy will have sacrificed not just virgins but also sacrificed babies, skinned puppies alive, sipped the tears of an orphan whose parents were killed by said Evil Wizard, etc.

I'm really beginning to realize I'll need to be equipped to debunk as many accusations of bad taste in design as possible. Every time a GM raises a point that highlights something "problematic", the sensible thing for the player to do is to immediately offer the most effective solution to be implemented. I've done so repeatedly in this thread already, and when it comes to bringing Oswald to the table I'll continue doing so.

EDIT: Also, someone was thoughtful enough to mention (on the Discord) "redlining" to spend "FP" when you don't have any, as undead or machines might be capable of doing. I definitely want that to NOT be an option, and for that to be reflected in the -80%.