[DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

[Tymathee]

My insomnia just might keep me up another night in a row, so I hope I'm making sense. x_x In the mean time, here's more (hopefully coherent) analysis for the implementation of DF's Power Item rules.

Maybe I value it too highly, but the Power Item seems to be of utmost value in the dungeon in circumstances where you'd most benefit from going past what your own stores of energy allows and going to the point you'd need to dip into that Power Item energy for the most bang needed. Like up until what you figure is the "boss fight" you've been functioning on your inherent energy (that you've kept up with periodic resting) but effectively double it or more for the last showdown of the dungeon by using your Power Item that you've cultivated to that value. A Wizard who's smart with his money and fortuitous in his acquiring of good loot could have that impressive Power Item sooner than later. Its not just good for boss fights, but fantastic when you need a lot of energy and you need it NOW. Then once you hit up Town afterwards you pay up what likely amounts to about a weeks worth of lunch money (haha...) to recharge your Power Item for the next delve... repeat roughly optimal Power Item usage again for that dungeon, etc.

It's just so good to have, and so readily available for the regular Wizard. Oswald is missing out on some good stuff... maybe I'm wrongly conflating the value of this with Weapon Master and Heroic Archer but it really feels like a Wizard gets so much value out of DF's Power Item rules, and they don't even have to pay up the points for it all unlike those other cinematic traits. Energy matters a lot for a Wizard.

[Tymathee]

Well, we sort of reversed engineered the 1 magic perk to 20 points in spells cap into a -20% "Pact" Limitation. Alternatively, I interpreted a magic perk effectively requiring a [20] Unusual Background (more magical education, more plausibility for having picked up the little tricks of the trade).

The problem though is that if that's a Pact Limitation, it doesn't make sense because we're implying that having traits of positive value is reason for another positive value trait to be more limited because of that. Ergo you don't take one trait and apply a Pact requiring a Advantage, because it's not a meaningful Limitation then.

I vaguely recall there being published Unusual Background that have game mechanical benefits attached, but I can't recall the material that was from. Might've been some Christopher Rice work? Hmm. Anyways, 20 points in spells per magic perk is essentially saying that each magic perk is arguably worth 21 points. That's a 2,000% increase in value (!!!).

I thought this was some good analysis to keep in mind. It might mean that the 1 to 20 cap is not meaningful game balance, or is grossly and/or wrongfully overcompensating for the magic perks.

What I'm trying to say is that LER (BM) definitely needs that additional -20%, but not really because of needing to be switched from the -20% for the 1 to 20 cap because that's possibly not sound design to begin with.

Back to considering what that -20% ought to be! I've been flipping through the Powers book and haven't thought up something flavorfully appropriate yet, but I'm sure I will.

[Tymathee]

I thought this would be relevant to quote here, as this is more or less a record of my continuing thoughts on Oswald's character design (as well as a sounding board through discussion of course). It's also a lot of what I feel about character design in general.

Originally Posted by Tymathee

I know this is unconventional logic, but players can aid with crunch processing and pass it along to the GM to approve. There's nothing wrong with collaborating, and if anything it speeds play.

For a lot of my pet project characters, I take a great deal of liberty with design choices. Why not? If there's likely game mechanics baked into the character that are more or less unique to them it'd make sense that they cater to the player's sense of fun. It's also a mutual process though ultimately, as the GM does have the final say. It helps that over the past decade I've been using GURPS as casual reading material... so I at least have some sense of proper GURPS design. It's also important to note that your character is not the main protagonist and therefore it's yours and the GMs responsibility to ensure that your character is a part of a whole, not a large center piece with smaller adjacent pieces. World building can be influenced by character design choices too, and it's not a new fangled idea for the players to help make a world they'd enjoy playing in... it helps to immerse them better because they had a hand in its making too. RPGs are a collaborative experience to some extent no matter what. You're all telling a story together.

[Tymathee]

Well, while I did eyeball "Cannot Share or Transfer Energy" as a -7% (I imagine this would be irksome to those with pentaphilia) for reasons I've detailed previously, it appears to more or less actually resemble "Abilities Only" for -10% as seen on pg. 119 of Powers. So "Cannot Share or Transfer Energy" ought to be -10% instead. Trivial change for LER (BM) but I thought I'd at least take note of it.

For that missing -20% on Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic), I've opted for Slow Recharge, 1 point/hour, also on pg. 119 of Powers. The Recover Energy spell will allow him to recover his LER (BM) at a rate of 1 point every 12 minutes.

So, I decided to take another look at the -80% modifier on Magery.

If we could, hypothetically, require a Unusual Background (Power Item) for access to Power Items? I would eyeball it at [35], more or less smack dab between other cinematic traits Heroic Archer and Weapon Master. We can then flip that to a Disadvantage, No Unusual Background (Power Item) [-35]. Derive a "Pact" (or rather "Required Disadvantage") Limitation from this and we have -35%. "Cannot Use External Energy" starts us at -15%, but I would add the -35% ("Cannot Use External Energy" notes that the value can be adjusted according to the meaningfulness of that kind of external energy access) to that as we've determined the value of lacking Power Item access. So that gives us -50%. If "Cannot Use External Energy" limits you to only ER, FP, and HP and no external sources, restricting it to ER sounds like it would tack on another -20%... but it isn't just ER, it is LER (BM). So -30% seems more like it. So we add that all up... and we arrive at -80%.

So, yes, it seems as if -80% is more or less right on the mark. Neat-o!

EDIT: Looking at the Power Items table, the highest store of energy listed on it is 40 (one might assume it could go higher...). If you were to more or less stat that up as a Energy Reserve with the appropriate Gadget modifiers and a form of Special Recharge, we'd get something like [40]. So my eyeballed -35% was pretty close enough.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

So, I decided to take another look at the -80% modifier on Magery.

If we could, hypothetically, require a Unusual Background (Power Item) for access to Power Items? I would eyeball it at [35], more or less smack dab between other cinematic traits Heroic Archer and Weapon Master. We can then flip that to a Disadvantage, No Unusual Background (Power Item) [-35]. Derive a "Pact" (or rather "Required Disadvantage") Limitation from this and we have -35%. "Cannot Use External Energy" starts us at -15%, but I would add the -35% ("Cannot Use External Energy" notes that the value can be adjusted according to the meaningfulness of that kind of external energy access) to that as we've determined the value of lacking Power Item access. So that gives us -50%. If "Cannot Use External Energy" limits you to only ER, FP, and HP and no external sources, restricting it to ER sounds like it would tack on another -20%... but it isn't just ER, it is LER (BM). So -30% seems more like it. So we add that all up... and we arrive at -80%.

So, yes, it seems as if -80% is more or less right on the mark. Neat-o!

EDIT: Looking at the Power Items table, the highest store of energy listed on it is 40 (one might assume it could go higher...). If you were to more or less stat that up as a Energy Reserve with the appropriate Gadget modifiers and a form of Special Recharge, we'd get something like [40]. So my eyeballed -35% was pretty close enough.

Remember that -80% on Magery is, for exemple, "one spell only" !

I still think you overestimate the value of accessing Power items ...
You said it is an UB worth 35 cp, I feel it is more like an Extra Option perk.

Another way to look at it :

"Cannot Use External Energy to cast spells" cannot be more than -60% (total spell incompetence : cannot learn or cast spells at all)

So,
"Cannot Use External Energy if the campaign makes heavy use of external energy sources, and also cannot use fp or hp" is somewhere between -15% and -60%.

And it cannot be -60%, since you can still cast 0-cost spells and use ER.

Assuming as a thought experiment an equal split of those 60% by energy sources, you would have **
15% : can cast 0-cost spells
15% : can cast spells with fp (and hp)
15% : can cast spells with ER
15% : can cast spells with External sources

And you are looking at -30% on Magery for your limitation.

Now, in DF, perhaps you have instead
10% : can cast 0-cost spells
10% : can cast spells with fp and hp
10% : can cast spells with ER
30% : can cast spells with External sources including Power item

And you are looking at -40% on Magery for your limitation.

But not -80%, however you want to cut it.

**:ignoring the "cannot learn aspect" of total incompetence for simplicity.

[Tymathee]

Remember, GMs typically have positive bias towards the survival of PCs. You could be a more adversarial-style GM and keep orchestrating circumstances where the Power Item gets knocked into a bottomless pit or whatever, but at some point your players are going to grow suspicious of your ethics and call foul. If you're going to permit cinematic rules, like DF's Power Items, you should let the players have fun with it. Alternatively, like I mentioned before, the alternative is to force a party wide extreme opposite of a Monty Haul to keep Power Items from growing too fast. If not for the Power Item rules, the player ought to be paying a handsome lump of points for it with a Energy Reserve with Gadget Limitations and a appropriate Special Recharge Limitation... or perhaps equally valued Unusual Background. Either way, the Power Item rules force the GM to be a jerk to keep it balanced.

Magery is already a highly extreme point crock to begin with. If we priced it as a Talent, that'd have to be 15 points per level of Magery. If we enforce smooth Talent costing (as many think it is more sound game design) as per the Talents book, you have a single level of Magery costing hundreds of points.

In the grand scheme of things, 2 point Magery (... which have aggressively balanced "training expenses" rules being enforced if it is to be improved in play) is not really breaking game balance more than RAW Magery already is.

I will consider the -40% at least, and see about working out a additional -40% to make it -80%. Although I'm inclined to think it still ought to be -80%, but I am not immovable in my stances as I've said before.

Since he exclusively only uses LER (BM) to power his spells, that also means:

• Casting spells while in stealth might as well effectively be off limits. He doesn't just glow, he glows.
• Even if a adventuring companion helps him with a convincing disguise (and perhaps something to hide his aura to evade magical means of detection), he can't risk exposing himself to wholesome society by openly casting magic. Sure, some of the most vital magic happens in the dungeon but one might assume a massive portion of the game still happens outside of those dungeons.
• ... and really any other far reaching, rippling out implications of using Evil magical energy you could infer from this really.

Thanks for chiming in Celjabba. I really appreciate having people to bounce ideas with. :)

[Tymathee]

Hmm, about 0 energy cost spells. Sure, there's some of that at play. He only gets a 2 energy discount on spells at this point, and there's still plenty of much more highly impactful spells that don't require just 2 energy and may require much, much more energy if you want them to have the desired effect you want them to. You have to take into account Low Mana Zones (or just straight up No Mana Zones for no spellcasting at all regardless of energy costs), the need for pumping up Missile spells to get the most bang, Area Spell costs adding up...

Sure, he could raise up skills with points to raise skill level... but that's not cost effective. So he wants to raise Magery. However, he has to first jump through many hoops via the "training expenses" that are being enforced. Committing ritualistic acts of significant Evil is not easy, and besides the costs for paying for the minimum $1000 in ritual trappings there might be travel expenses for acquiring the items needed, or needing to pay hirelings willing to assist you...

It helps to look at the bigger picture. I'm not always cognizant of absolutely every fine grain detail but I do try to be mindful of the ramifications of design choices.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

[*]Even if a adventuring companion helps him with a convincing disguise (and perhaps something to hide his aura to evade magical means of detection), he can't risk exposing himself to wholesome society by openly casting magic. Sure, some of the most vital magic happens in the dungeon but one might assume a massive portion of the game still happens outside of those dungeons.

Let me rephrase this in a more crunchy way.

Originally Posted by Dungeons, pg. 5, Travel

Once the heroes have gear and a quest, their goal is to reach the dungeon. Again, the GM might simply drop them into the thick of things; if so, skip these notes.

It makes it clear that the travel rules are entirely optional, boiling travel down to a "travel montage" essentially. The Wilderness Adventures supplement is even more highly optional.

With this in mind, 50% of your spellcasting opportunities are in Town, and 50% of your other spellcasting opportunities are in the Dungeons. Whenever he casts magic, for the duration of the spell casting time he's emitting a intense "eerie light" that is readily identifiable as Evil without need of any means of detecting it through magical means. This means he is very nearly prohibited from casting magic in Town. Sure, you could rent a room at the local Inn just to cast a single spell, draw the blinds real tight and hang a cloth over the door to keep the light from showing through the cracks in and around the door, with a "Do Not Disturb" sign hanging outside... but this is still all too risky to be counting on consistently or reliably (and this is assuming he even snuck into Town with a convincing enough disguise... "Monster Towns" might definitely be a thing, but likely very infrequent).

Assuming the (optional) travel rules are being used and not hand waived away for a travel montage, he's still going to struggle with putting himself at risk for using magic powered by Evil magical energy in the open. If he's within any meaningful close distance from Town, or any other civilized, wholesome people(s), anyone on watch is going to likely see a flare of eerie light that they'll intuitively be able to know as capital E Evil magic being done. Heck, this might even peak the interest of some wandering monsters. I suppose he could find a discrete cave... or any time he wants to cast magic, I suppose he could dig a deep enough hole in the ground, crawl in, and make sure he has it covered tightly enough. That's a lot.

With these facts in mind, his magic is essentially pretty restricted in when he can and can't use it. I had these thoughts in mind when figuring out the -80%, primarily with the default assumption of 50% Town/50% Dungeons w/ abstracted travel montages as the default given that it is made clear that even just the basic travel rules are optional by default, with more deeply emphasized Wilderness Adventures being even more highly optional.

[Celjabba]

Note : again, just playing devil advocate, you obviously do as you want in your game !

Originally Posted by Tymathee

With this in mind, 50% of your spellcasting opportunities are in Town, and 50% of your other spellcasting opportunities are in the Dungeons.

In DF, I would say it is more 10% in town / 90% in the dungeon (+ wilderness travel if applicable.)
But it obviously varies, my own DFRPG game,it is about 70% in town for now ... but it is not really DFRPG either, and I backported lots of social elements from outside DF.

**
Regarding the various reaction penalties :

Race with bad appearance and social stigma can be denied entrance to a town, or are hunted on sight with enough reaction penalties, so Oswald would hardly be alone in being forced to live (well, unlive) "outside the walls."
See the Box "Almost Monster" in DF-3 pg 11.

Oswald already have a -9 to reaction rolls due to the social stigma and monstrous appearance if he does enter.
Occasional -4 for being detected as Evil and -2 for Weirdness magnet are certainly bad, but coming on top of a -9 ... a third of the town already attack you on sight, and only one person in 20 is reluctantly willing to deal with you, so you should avoid town, Black Magic or not.

Remember that your whole party can suffer from your social stigma in certain situations and you have Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions), so for the common good, you should stay outside town anyway ...

A few point of rules :

**
It may be argued that being "Evil with a capital E" is a social stigma, and you cannot stack 2 social stigma. -4 for dead, or -4 for Evil, choose one.

**

Originally Posted by Tymathee

"Monster Towns" might definitely be a thing, but likely very infrequent

You have universal on your monstrous appearance.
Not even Monster towns will welcome you !

**
The point break due to Temporary Disadvantage cannot exceed 80% of
the value of the original disadvantage. (Basic p 115)

So, the "-20%, Eerie light, -4 to reaction roll" cannot save you more than -16 cp on a given advantage.
Not a problem for your ER (yet) but it will kick in at 27 ER !
Be mindful of this if you apply your Black Magic -20% to other advantages (such as magery ...)

**
One could argue that your various Black Magic Reaction penalties limitations are not Pact or temporary disadvantages, but aftermath limitations (from PU8) : They don't hinder the advantage, but after using it, you suffer from a disadvantages for a while (here, a reaction penalty).
As such, they should be at half cost : ie -10% for a -4 to reaction roll instead of -20%.

[Celjabba]

Regarding power items : their overall importance is also a function of how often you "touch base".

If your mage only cast half a dozen spells between visit to the town, the Power Item is a huge asset.
If your mage cast a thousand spells between visit to the town, the Power Item is a useful tool, no more.

Likewise,
if you play a fast paced delve with little time for breaks (in game)
vs
allowing the characters time to have power nap between rooms.