Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Hmm... it would be a good fit for this thread. Is it really that bad to edit it into the opening post (noting it is an edit to explain why no one addresses it for four pages), and let the discussion commence?

Really asking; in short threads it is an issue, but if this one continues, I'd think we'd adapt pretty readily.

Surgery, sure. I will follow your suggestion, and will add a note about the effects of Regeneration on Surgery to the beginning post as an edit--thanks!

EDIT: I just added it.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Oh, yeah, that might be part of the practical side of things, especially in a more grounded campaign with firearms; removing bullets before they - and any clothing/grime around them - are trapped in healing wounds. I don't know medicine or firearms all that well, but I was under the impression that such a thing can be an issue in real life, with mundane healing.

In the X-Men films Wolverine, who has Regeneration at about this level, expels the bullets and other stuff that has entered his body through wounds while he's healing. Is there anything in the description of the Regeneration advantage that suggests that this isn't the case with the advantage?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

In the X-Men films Wolverine, who has Regeneration at about this level, expels the bullets and other stuff that has entered his body through wounds while he's healing. Is there anything in the description of the Regeneration advantage that suggests that this isn't the case with the advantage?

GURPS doesn't address bullets remaining inside wounds in the first place, and it only addresses cleaning wounds in the context of preventing infection (as written, regeneration does not affect infection rolls, but since infection is 1 point per day and doesn't prevent healing the injury (unless you consider it a special case of disease, which is possible but not specified), is completely irrelevant in combination with regeneration).

[spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by Anthony

GURPS doesn't address bullets remaining inside wounds in the first place, and it only addresses cleaning wounds in the context of preventing infection (as written, regeneration does not affect infection rolls, but since infection is 1 point per day and doesn't prevent healing the injury (unless you consider it a special case of disease, which is possible but not specified), is completely irrelevant in combination with regeneration).

Gurps does mention foreign matter in the body in at least 1 spot, teleport perk expulsion in Psionic Powers p 69 covers it. Seems like a reasonable cost and name for a regen perk as well.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

In the X-Men films Wolverine, who has Regeneration at about this level, expels the bullets and other stuff that has entered his body through wounds while he's healing. Is there anything in the description of the Regeneration advantage that suggests that this isn't the case with the advantage?

Before I answer any of this... did you read my most recent comment? It was made not quite three hours before yours, and I believe it answers your question, or at least, part of your question.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Before I answer any of this... did you read my most recent comment? It was made not quite three hours before yours, and I believe it answers your question, or at least, part of your question.

Yeah, I read your post. I may be misunderstanding something but I see nothing in it that answers my question.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade

EDIT: There's also the question of how would very fast Regeneration affect Surgery? Before the surgeon even finishes making the incision, the first part of the cut has already healed. Even for an extremely fast surgeon, Surgery would essentially be impossible. How would you deal with that?

They would need to plug up the wound as they go, holding it fast and preventing it from healing; once you've got something that works there, Surgery should be doable relatively normally, albeit perhaps at a malus for needing to do the initial cuts quickly so you have time to wedge something in there (although an assistant following along to plug things up would help immensely). Alternatively, they'd need to use something that causes continuous damage. In that case, instead of a spoon, removing arrowheads may involve some sort of handcranked drill with a grabber fed through a hollow center - drill in, grab the arrowhead, and drill out.

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by Varyon

They would need to plug up the wound as they go, holding it fast and preventing it from healing; once you've got something that works there, Surgery should be doable relatively normally, albeit perhaps at a malus for needing to do the initial cuts quickly so you have time to wedge something in there (although an assistant following along to plug things up would help immensely). Alternatively, they'd need to use something that causes continuous damage. In that case, instead of a spoon, removing arrowheads may involve some sort of handcranked drill with a grabber fed through a hollow center - drill in, grab the arrowhead, and drill out.

So there is a need for a drug to suppress Regeneration?

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

So there is a need for a drug to suppress Regeneration?

I vaguely remember that coming up in Marvel Comics, but I could be mistaken.

I definitely remember an issue of Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. where something related to this came up. Wolverine was a guest character, so I am pretty sure it was Volume 3, issues number 27 and 28. I don't remember specifics, but I recall Wolverine being unzipped from a body bag, on an operating table, and finally getting so annoyed with whomever was helping him out by removing some slugs from his body, that he snatched the scalpel (or whatever instrument was being used), and started doing it himself. He didn't want the wounds to heal over the bullets, forcing him to work even harder to dig them out.

Note that Wolverine's healing factor, after temporarily being nerfed, was then greatly accelerated. Comic readers may recall both ultimately being due to his adamantium being forcibly removed from his skeleton via Magneto being Magneto. This comic is from a few years earlier, so Wolverine either had Regeneration (Regular) or Regeneration (Fast). It would have been really bad if he'd had any faster forms. That being said, I'm not assuming it to be the rule for Regeneration; it makes about as much sense to argue that, as wounds heal, foreign bodies are slowly pushed out by new tissue.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Otaku

I definitely remember an issue of Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. where something related to this came up.
Wolverine was a guest character, so I am pretty sure it was Volume 3, issues number 27 and 28.
I recall Wolverine
getting so annoyed with whomever was helping him out by removing some slugs from his body
he snatched the scalpel (or whatever instrument was being used), and started doing it himself.
He didn't want the wounds to heal over the bullets, forcing him to work even harder to dig them out.

I wish I'd known about this example during in this November discussion: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=170987

Originally Posted by Otaku

Note that Wolverine's healing factor, after temporarily being nerfed, was then greatly accelerated.

Which gives an example of even uber-healing being unable to get rid of bullets, supporting the idea I had of designing a severely nerfed "Warp" advantage to represent that process.

Originally Posted by Otaku

I'm not assuming it to be the rule for Regeneration;
it makes about as much sense to argue that, as wounds heal,
foreign bodies are slowly pushed out by new tissue.

I can see grounds for assuming that with EXTREMELY superficial injuries, especially if "out" is the only direction it could possibly be pushed because DR prevents in moving in another direction.

Wolverine's HF in the X-Men 2 film for example did push out a slug that was embedded in his forehead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfEOlFVSYcAo&t=9 (ff to 1m41s for when it pops out and he opens eyes)

but that's by nature superficial since it did not penetrate the skull (it being adamantium: no way lead it going to get through there)

Probably a more interesting question here is why wolverine actually got knocked down (and seemingly knocked out) as you wouldn't expect that to happen unless it did actually penetrate the skull and hit the brain...

I guess one option is that Wolverine's skull DR operates like "Flexible" (due to "Tough Skin: it's subdermal) even though Adamantium wouldn't actually literally be flexible like chainmail...

The intent being that you could suffer Blunt Trauma on head injuries...

You need flexible DR to stop 10 points of Piercing Damage to suffer 1 HP of Blunt Trauma...

X2 came out in 2003 when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servic...#United_States says .45 calibers were standard...

so if I go with the "Auto Pistol" on B278 that's 2d damage, so it's possible the cop got a lucky shot (rolling 10 on 2d is rare enough) just enough to inflict 1 HP on wolverine via blunt trauma.

This would not be a major wound (even if the x4 applied, but AFAIK you don't apply wound multipliers to blunt trauma?) but I think B420's "Knockdown and Stunning" rule would apply: Wolverine has less than 20 HP so 1 HP loss is enough to cause a shock penalty for him: so he would need to make a HT roll and probably failed it.

If it was a normal fail then he would've lied prone until his Stun wore off. In theory he might've been able to do an active defense at -4 but nobody was attacking him.

He lies there a LOT longer than you'd expect it to take for him to pass a HT roll to end the stun, so if it was a normal knockdown HT fail, he might've been playing posse at first.

This would make especial sense if you use the "Last Gasp" rules: suffering injury saps you of Action Points, so if your first Do Nothing ended the stun but didn't recover your AP, you might take more Do Nothings until your AP was at max. GM might even decide that Regeneration uses up some AP too.

That couldn't take very long though, and you'd expect Wolverine to jump up to stop Pyro murdering cops sooner if he were conscious, so the simpler explanation is that Wolverine CRIT-failed his HT roll (or failed by 5+) causing an actual knockout.

B423 would then apply: takes 15 minutes to wake up.

Logan didn't take that long so he probably has Recovery... but he took more than 15 seconds... more like 90 seconds.... would that be something like taking 2 levels of Takes Extra Time for a -20% discount to reduce it to 8 points, perhaps?

That'd be 3 minutes recovery at -30, 6 minutes at -40, 12 minutes at -50, and there's be no point in taking TET 6 (24 min) since then you're actually taking longer to do it than if you lacked Recovery altogether.

Another way to slow it down might be if Recovery and Regeneration were Alternative Abilities for him, in which case maybe Recovery only activated after the 1 HP of Blunt Trauma was healed?

If we define "push out bullets" as an Alternative Ability (as I did in the November thread) that'd be another slow-down: 1st Warp runs, 2nd Regen runs, 3rd Recovery runs.

Wolverine opened his eyes instantly after the bullet fell out and the wound closed though, so I don't think this is the right approach, as you would expect a 15-second delay.

Unless... maybe it somehow cycles between all 3 abilities instinctively? You might preprgram how that went.

IE 1 second worth of Recovery is 1 minute's worth, so you would get 15 seconds (minutes) worth of it after 90 seconds if it activated 1 second per 6 seconds. The other 5 seconds of those intervals could be split between Regeneration and Warp (or maybe TK: that could also pull out a bullet hands-free)

Originally Posted by Þorkell

Is there anything in the description of the Regeneration advantage that suggests that this isn't the case with the advantage?

I think you would need to opt-in a benefit like that, not just assume it's there and opt out.

My instinct last month to call this Afflictions: Warp was probably a bad idea due to the high base cost of Affliction (10) and of the Advantage enhancement (+1000% for 100pt ability)

Using TK would be a lot simpler, you only need 1 level of TK (5pts) to move a bullet, after all.

TK would need a lot of modifiers to model this... I actually got it to work out to +0% so you could just charge 1 point for it as an Internal Advantage.

Enhancements +170%

1) Reflexive +40%: so you don't need to pay a Concentrate maneuver (included Reduced Time) and so it activates itself w/o conscious input (takes bullets out of you even if you're not aware of them, or unconscious)
2) Persistant +40%: to give TK a duration of 10 seconds so Independent can be used (it requires a duration)
3) Independent +70%: to remove the require for maintaining concentration for it to work
4) Based on HT +20%: because rolling DX to grapple stuff feels weird here

Limitations -170%

1) Reduced (1/10) Range -30% because you don't need more than 1 yard of reach
2) Reduced (1/10) Duration -20% because all you really need is 1 second for Independent to work: Reflexive will re-activate it every second as a free action!
3) Visible -20% this isn't an invisible force, it's actually the tissues of your body connecting with and moving the objects out
4) Blood Agent, Reversed -30% (can only move things he's bled upon)
5) Attraction or Repulsion -60%
6) Requires HT roll -10% (just to round things out, cause some occasional FP costs, shut down the TK if FP was low: this would be distinct from using HT to do DX grapples)

With the last one it's a bit of a headscratcher due to being an internal advantage: "away from me" in this case means "away from my deepest tissues towards my superficial epidermis"

Since a Reflexive ability "activates itself" you could just RP that it's only goal is to expel foreign objects, being a simple intelligence.