What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

[johndallman]

[QUOTE=Taneli;2347551]

• Instead of gathering for energy, you roll casting once, and you take a penalty to your casting skill equal to the final energy cost, divided by 10 and rounded down.

Another idea: D&D-style fantasy magic systems are good for combat, but don't deal with the idea of slow ritual magic, requiring lots of props, aka "ceremonial" casting. There's a way to provide that with this RPM variant.

For ceremonial casting, you revert to gathering energy, with one gathering roll every five minutes (or even longer without Ritual Adept). This makes for long ceremonies, with plenty of time for enemies to interfere. It might even allow casting spells that aren't known or in an available source: this could be the equivalent of a prototype.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Magery does not allow for the development of Immunity (Magic) (Powers, p. 111) and specifically forbids in on Powers, p. 72 for magical systems that require the channeling of magical energy. If you want that type of defense, take Magical Resistance (Improved), which is allowed in RPM. In general, passive abilities are not switchable, and I would honestly require the Discretionary (+150%) modifier to have Immunity ignore non-hazardous effects (similar to Static). If you have Immunity to Poison, you cannot get drunk, high, or benefit from painkillers, because it is always on and always interfering with any potentially poisonous substance, so the same would apply to Immunity (Magic).

I'm not sure where on p111 you are talking about, but p72 says "often" which is actually kind of backwards with how common magic is its own anti power. Plus Resistant doesn't cover nearly as many threats as Static, so I don't think it should be anywhere as costly as it (since Static already takes that enhancement to allow friendly spells).

Unless your point is that Immunity doesn't affect friendly spells and you only can't turn it off for hazardous spells. Then I apologize for making that assumption.

[AlexanderHowl]

Immunity (Magic) effects all magic.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Immunity (Magic) effects all magic.

That seems pretty bad for 30pts (again, compare Static) and doesn't even make sense with the rules. Resistant blatantly only affects certain things, namely "noxious effects within a particular catgeory" and to resist those attacks. As recent thread has shown me, helpful spells don't have the ability to be resisted and don't have the modifiers that would let Resistant stop non-resistable effects.

On that note, as pointed above, RPM is likely the strongest magical system (that or maybe syntactic verb/noun magic without FP costs) largely for being able to get around many of the antimagic problems that exist due to sheer versatility in what you can do. Many forms of anitmagic only work against certain ways a spell is cast on something with Static and Mana Dampener being the best "stop all angles" approaches.

[AlexanderHowl]

Immunity works against effects of that type that do not allow for Resistance rolls (for example, Cyanide for Poisons and Malaria for Disease), so Immunity (Magic) works against all magical effects that target a character, whether they are resisted or not (unless DR or Protect Sense provides protection). There are diseases and poisons that potentially have beneficial symptoms (for example, a Fatigue Attack with Contact Agent could give Regeneration), but Immunity (Disease) or Immunity (Poison) would also prevent them from working.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Immunity works against effects of that type that do not allow for Resistance rolls (for example, Cyanide for Poisons and Malaria for Disease), so Immunity (Magic) works against all magical effects that target a character, whether they are resisted or not (unless DR or Protect Sense provides protection). There are diseases and poisons that potentially have beneficial symptoms (for example, a Fatigue Attack with Contact Agent could give Regeneration), but Immunity (Disease) or Immunity (Poison) would also prevent them from working.

It only works against very specific effects that don't allow Resistance rolls and even tells you them in Basic. Further;

Originally Posted by Kromm

ItMH means that no chemical, disease, or similar agent that alters your metabolism to cause the afflictions on pp. B428-429, or indirect FP or HP loss, affects you. This includes ones that word their afflictions as temporary disadvantages.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Noxious effects only, defined as being ones that cause afflictions (pp. B428-429 and temporary disadvantages), FP loss, and/or HP loss. If some miracle drug cures cancer, grants 10 bonus HP, and gives you Mind Reading, but also lowers your ST to 1 and causes Paranoia, you simply don't suffer the ST loss or Paranoia.

Noxious Effects only. If a "poison" gave High Pain Threshold and did 3d fat damage, you'd ignore the damage. And if we assume the rules work the same for any power as it does the "mundane" powerset, Immunity to Metabolic Hazards is still better than Immunity to Magic (or psionics, super, etc). If a character was untouchable by Magic, that character should get the far superior defenses Static gives with the downsides of not being able to be buffed, healed, etc by Magic. (It's also pretty antagonistic to have an advantage on your sheet "protect" you from beneficial effects when that isn't written out plainly).

On topic, I also like "Magic as TL" where the 'tech' of the setting is actually just magic being commonplace. "Magic as Bang!" is a pretty fun subtle system where you pick a wildcard skill and treat the effects as magic, including things like impulse points the bang skill gives.

[Plane]

Anyone know why Magic Resistance does such an extreme 'no spells at all' even at level 1, instead of just acting like a double-edged sword and penalizing?

Kind of like how Mind Shield works if you take the PP15 "Feedback" limitaiton. A soft cap.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I think Immunity to Magic is strictly better

Resistant gives you bonuses to Resistance Rolls when you get them, while Immunity lets you automatically pass those rolls when you get them.

You don't get Resistance Rolls at all against spells not listed as "Resistable", and even with those, you don't get Resistance Rolls if they critically succeed.

That's where Magic Resistance seriously pulls ahead of Resitant to Magic / Immunity to Magic, because it can target the basic skill roll and cause failure, regardless of whether the outcome is resistible.

By dropping skill below 16 or 15 you remove 6/5 as crit success results, so you only need to worry about the rarer 4/3 results.

Also useful in creating more crit fails: especially in wild mana.

I don't think lowering effective skill past 3 prevents attempts (since you may not know the penalties a applying to you when attempting it) but if it doesn't, it probably shouldn't be a crit success anymore, or even a success at all (like firing a skill 20 gun with -100 range modifiers)

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

it's not Static which does have downsides

Static (Magic) is probably cheaper than the amount of Magic Resistance it'd take to adequatly lower the skill 99 of some ubermage. Mana Damper can sometimes compete but I don't think Static (Magic) can be counteracted by Mana Enhancer, that's in it's favor.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

it was pointed out to me that being immune to drugs shouldn't make you "immune" to 1-up mushrooms

Why not, if they're drugs with a resistance roll? If there's no resistance roll to 1-up mushrooms it would ignore resistant/immune though.

To make resistant optional (temporarily take off to try and fail rolls) you could make it switchable, usually on, "costs fatigue", try to "power block" with it and fail, etc...

Originally Posted by Rupert

I don't think the Magic Resistance is a very useful thing to put in as part of the 'mage build'. Anyone could have it, not just mages, and it doesn't make a mage better at magic.

Magic Susceptibility OTOH would make it very each to practice casting spells on yourself :)

Originally Posted by Rupert

unless you're confident you'll never need magical help from outside yourself you'll want that Magic Resistance to be Switchable (+10%) - it only costs 2 points, so why not?

T63 sets it at +100 like damper/enhancer for mages, just like P59 set Discriminatory for them as same value as B67 "Improved" for MR.

Though it's +10% for non-mages so maybe you mean that

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Magery does not allow for the development of Immunity (Magic) (Powers, p. 111)

P111 is new limitations, were you thinking of P131?

Resistant isn't a listed example there if that's what you mean?

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

and specifically forbids in on Powers, p. 72 for magical systems that require the channeling of magical energy.

"often the case" sounds like there could be exceptions...

and P72 mentions "a power" providing protection against it's source should be forbidden, but that wouldn't prevent you from having "Immunity to Magic (Psionic Telepathy -10%)" as 1 power and a separate batch of magical powers.

M12 similarly talks about powers protecting against their source, so Immune to Magic as a wild advantage (not a power, no source) would not clash with having Possession (Magical -10%) or similar.

The interesting thing about magic is also that when you can resist, you can voluntarily waive resistance rolls, so you could take the +8 resistance and opt to waive it in cases where you trust the caster. I just don't know if the auto-success version is waivable in that way.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Immunity (Magic) effects all magic.

P72 "Resistant and Immunity only help against threats that offer resistance rolls"

Worth wondering if something "offers a resistance roll" in the situation of "I'm consenting to the spell".

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Immunity works against effects of that type that do not allow for Resistance rolls (for example, Cyanide for Poisons

Are we told somewhere about this explicitly for cyanide?

B439 makes it sound like a "direct physical attack" (ie Toxic Attack) since it would lack the "Resistible" limitation.

This can be respiratory, matching "Innate Attacks with these modifiers" on B80.

We're told it doesn't apply where DR does, but since respiratory ignores DR that's no help... "do not have any any of the modifiers given above" and so forth.

I guess maybe I'm wondering what the point is of DR (poison only, hardened) would be if ITDR does that, but I guess it would still be "forms of poison that don't ignore DR".

Contact agents having a 15 minute delay is something I'd have trouble putting in Innate Attack terms... I guess it's like Onset / Exposure Time

Maybe "Resistible on a HT-20 roll" would be like a -0% limitation and what things like this effectively are? It's just a strange jump to go from Resistant to Poisons +8 doing nothing (nor a Power Block doing +16) to the next step being a guarantee.

Sort of like how P118 "Instant-Death Attacks" treats an HT-18 affliction as "instantly kill anyone with HT 20 or less" even though an effective HT of 2 is actually still supposed to let you have a resistance roll.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Plane

T63 sets it at +100 like damper/enhancer for mages, just like P59 set Discriminatory for them as same value as B67 "Improved" for MR.

Though it's +10% for non-mages so maybe you mean that

No, I meant what I wrote, but I didn't think to check Thaumatology to see if it suggested a different pricing from the earlier Powers. Having had it pointed out to me, I agree that the latter cost makes much more sense, as +10% on such a cheap (at base cost) advantage is almost certainly way too good.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

You don't get Resistance Rolls at all against spells not listed as "Resistable", and even with those, you don't get Resistance Rolls if they critically succeed.

I do get the first part, but the second seems... wrong? I mean it likely is RAW, but it feels weird that criticals can overcome immunity. Then again, this is Magic (the book and its system) we are talking about...

But yes, it isn't strictly better, you're write.

[lugaid]

After thinking this over for a while, and in answer to the original question, I think that it's clear that the "best" magic system varies considerably by the particular setting being used. For myself, my preferred magic systems include (in no particular order):

Sorcery - perhaps the best implementation of "magic as powers", I think. Personally, I think that Divine Favor can be considered a variation of this, or vice versa, but that's just a matter of taste I think.

Psionic Powers - treated as magic.

Path/Book Magic - there are some parts that didn't make a good transition from 3E to 4E and so I think should be adjusted, but it's still a wonderfully flavorful system.

Vanilla Magic - along with many of the variations, such as Threshold-Limited, Clerical, altered colleges, and so on.

But right now, my fantasy campaign under construction is looking to work with a combination of spirits and similar entities, the "Technicians of the Sacred" and similar ideas from Low-Tech Companion 1, and the ideas behind the Mystic (Practitioner) template in GURPS Horror or even the Mystic (Charlatan) template. So, kind of a "magic as powers" system, I guess, but also "magic as regular skills".