Judo is a striking skill

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

A specific rule does say so, which the OP quoted. And the 'particular' cases don't change the general case.

Kromm was responding to a question about the very rule we are discussing here. Here is the specific uFAQ entry - note Vicky's question (which, to be fair, hasn't been stated in the thread) was

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Judo is listed as a skill that can replace DX in DX rolls in close combat. I've used to read that quite literally and without reservation - i.e. any action in close combat that calls for a DX roll to succeed one way or another (except equipment-drawing/dropping). Now I have doubts.

This leaves things rather unambiguous, although I can see how without that context it may have been less clear.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Kromm was responding to a question about the very rule we are discussing here. Here is the specific uFAQ entry - note Vicky's question (which, to be fair, hasn't been stated in the thread) was

This leaves things rather unambiguous, although I can see how without that context it may have been less clear.

I am well aware of the quote and its context. I don't think it changes what I said.

[Donny Brook]

It is important to note that in the uFAQ, Kromm used quotes around the key types of situations where Judo cannot sub for DX. I did a word search in Basic set and Martial Arts and found the following instances:

"DX or Sumo Wrestling" appears under Sumo on B223, and Shove on B372.

"DX, Brawling, or Sumo Wrestling" appears under Slam on B371.

"DX, Brawling, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling" appears twice under Grab and Smash on MA118.

Given that Kromm quoted specific phrases that appear under specific rules, it does not seem like he meant that to be extrapolated to other usages such as the listings in the weapons table(s).

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Given that Kromm quoted specific phrases that appear under specific rules, it does not seem like he meant that to be extrapolated to other usages such as the listings in the weapons table(s).

Except that he preceeded those three examples with the phrase:

"if a rule explicitly lists the allowed skills – like [X], [Y], or [Z]"

The word "like" is a qualifier, it means he's using a set of examples, not creating an exhaustive list. He also did not call out those three specific rules, as you did, he chopped them off as examples. If he had meant the three specific examples you mentioned and nothing more, he would not have said "like" he'd have said "these three specific exceptions."

Originally Posted by Kromm

In particular, if a rule explicitly lists the allowed skills – like "DX or Sumo Wrestling," "DX, Brawling, or Sumo Wrestling," or "DX, Brawling, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling" – Judo works only if it's called out on the list.

e.g. "A character should have some combat skills - like Brawling, Broadsword, or Guns (Pistol)"
This does not rule out OTHER combat skills, it sets up an example list.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Except that he preceeded those three examples with the phrase:

"if a rule explicitly lists the allowed skills – like"

The word "like" is a qualifier, it means he's using a set of examples, not creating an exhaustive list. If he had meant the three specific examples you mentioned and nothing more, he would not have said "like" he'd have said "these three specific exceptions."

'Like' defines the category. UNlike things are excluded.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

'Like' defines the category. UNlike things are excluded.

How is:
"Boxing, Brawling, Karate, or DX"
completely UNlike:
"DX, Brawling, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling"

They are both explicit list of allowed skills defined by a rule. That one rule is in the form of a table and the other a written paragraph is irrelevant.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

How is:
"Boxing, Brawling, Karate, or DX"
completely UNlike:
"DX, Brawling, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling"

They are both explicit list of allowed skills defined by a rule. That one rule is in the form of a table and the other a written paragraph is irrelevant.

I feel like one of us is missing the other's point.

Kromm's quote means Judo is excluded as a sub for DX in the category of cases where a specific rule sets out specific skills for it along with DX. He defined that category with examples which my post above (#53) tracks down.

Uses of Judo to sub for DX that are not within that excluded category are okay.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

How is:
"Boxing, Brawling, Karate, or DX"
completely UNlike:
"DX, Brawling, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling"

Well nothing is 'completely' unlike another thing, everything is usually like+unlike to everything else in varying degrees.

Like an inconsequential difference between the above two is for some reason DX is listed last in the first and first in the last.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I feel like one of us is missing the other's point.

Kromm's quote means Judo is excluded as a sub for DX in the category of cases where a specific rule sets out specific skills for it along with DX. He defined that category with examples which my post above (#53) tracks down.

Uses of Judo to sub for DX that are not within that excluded category are okay.

As best as I can imagine, this means if we are told JUST a DX roll, but no other skill is ever called out, then Judo works?

B368 (evade v obstruct roll) seems like one such instance.

B401 "if you’re attempting to knock away a missile weapon, your opponent rolls against DX." perhaps also? Though maybe only if the one attacking your gun/bow is in close combat with you?

What about P112 "Requires (Attribute) roll" ?

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

those list explicitly exclude Judo from them (except for the one entry on Low-Tech, p. 67).

*also reads supporting paragraph on LT57*

Nice find with the Kakute. Makes me wonder how +1 to the grappler's QC roll to prevent a foe using Break Free would translate to Technical Grappling... like if it influenced Control Points or influenced a dodge/parry vs the Break Free attack. You there Cole?

B85's +1/level to Break Free for Slippery was changed to +1 CR/CP per TWO levels (I assume not adding a +DX for the attack roll?) but a 1:2 ratio wouldn't give any incentive to use a Kakute...

TG28 on the other hand keeps the +3/+5 to DX for Flexibility/Double-Jointed intact for using Break Free attack rolls (a 1:1 ratio) so maybe that could be precedent for keeping the Kakute bonus as something like +1 to DX (for parrying or dodging a Break Free attempt) which MIGHT make a difference?

Just to keep Kakutes cool I was thinking they should maybe subtract 1 control point (like Control Resistance 1) from the "damage" rolled by a successful "Break Free" attempt, or maybe do something like give +1 "damage" when establishing Control Points for a grapple to start with. Or perhaps both?

Originally Posted by RyanW

If you want to get really annoyingly pedantic, nothing says you can attack using a DX roll.

• Basic p. 271 "Melee weapons are grouped under the skills required to use them. Skill names appear in capital letters, with defaults in parentheses"
• Basic p. 563 "attack roll: A success roll against a combat skill"

It just happens that you have innate combat skill with natural weapons equal to your DX (or DX-2 for kicks), but the phrase "DX roll" is never actually used in relation to it. I admit, it's a completely preposterous way to read the rules.

Ironically enough, B370 does seem to have language like that, but not for striking :)
(Grabbing) "Make an attack using DX or a grappling skill"
(Grappling) "Roll against basic DX or a grappling skill to hit."

B403 "Trampling is a melee attack: roll vs. the higher of DX or Brawling"

I'm thinking that since Brawling is called out (a skill) this would be one of the situations where Judo couldn't be subbed for DX for Trampling based on Kromm's wording.

Originally Posted by RyanW

I can't find any reference to punching and kicking using DX .. other than the weapons table

Originally Posted by RyanW

Strikers, Melee spells, Telekinesis

For B88 Striker "Roll against DX or Brawling" I figure you can't use Judo since it does call out another skill (Brawling).

For TK "Grappling and Striking", B92's "Roll against DX or an unarmed combat skill to hit", I pretty much assume you would only roll against an appropriate unarmed combat skill, like judo/sumo/wrest if grabbing/grappling or brawl/box/karat if punching.

Melee spells though... B240 "To attack, roll against DX or an unarmed combat skill to hit with a
hand" seems like ANY unarmed combat skill would do, like it wouldn't matter whether it trains punches or grapples as the primary use, because they're contact spells.

One aspect of that... doesn't this pretty much assume that parrying works by deflecting the ARM rather than the HAND? I don't think for example, it would make sense to allow a "Grabbing Parry" which grabs the HAND instead of the ARM, to stop a Melee Spell, because you're choosing to touch the hand, so the spell should go off!

It's not really like a punch where you can just assume that this means they stopped the punch's power...

Originally Posted by RyanW

Shoves, and Slams have such references in their respective sections)

B371 "Roll against DX, Brawling, or Sumo Wrestling to hit"
B372 "Roll against DX or Sumo Wrestling to hit"

I imagine Judo doesn't apply since skills are called out in addition to DX though.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I am well aware of the quote and its context. I don't think it changes what I said.

I was attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt but... you're honestly saying that, when asked about the "Judo substitutes for DX in CC" rule, he called out that it did not apply to strikes, but meant it actually does apply to strikes, because he said "unless a specific rule says so," and the rule he was being asked about was a specific rule? Really?