Judo is a striking skill

[AlexanderHowl]

If punching, kicking, etc. was meant to default to Judo, the techniques would have the default listed in Basic and Martial Arts. Since Judo is not a valid default for those techniques, they do not default to Judo. In addition, the description in Basic says that Judo is an advanced study of throws and grapples and that Judo replaces only DX rolls (there is nothing about Technique rolls) in close combat. Of course, you could have a perk that gives Judo strikes, but they would be similar to Acrobatic Kicks, and they would not give any damage bonus.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

If punching, kicking, etc. was meant to default to Judo, the techniques would have the default listed in Basic and Martial Arts. Since Judo is not a valid default for those techniques, they do not default to Judo.

The counter-argument to that aligning with MrFix's interpretation would be that only universal (always applicable) defaults are listed, and that Judo is a situational (close combat only) application for punches/kicks which would not apply to punching/kicking at reach 1.

Originally Posted by MrFix

this only covers DEFENSES against an attack.
The attacker still counts as in close combat if he enters it on his turn, and can still make Reach C attacks (which is hallmark of being in close combat).
The DEFENDER is permitted to defend as if the attacker wasnt, but attacker himself is not penalized at all.

Attackers with long weapons are penalized if they step+stab instead of stab+step (-4 per yard of maximum length) so it's a "favors defenders" type setup here, is what I meant.

Allowing judo guys to potentially have higher skill attacking doesn't favor defenders, so "delay until they begin the turn close to give them that benefit" somewhat resembles the delay in applying defensive limitations.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Plane

The counter-argument to that aligning with MrFix's interpretation would be that only universal (always applicable) defaults are listed, and that Judo is a situational (close combat only) application for punches/kicks which would not apply to punching/kicking at reach 1.


Attackers with long weapons are penalized if they step+stab instead of stab+step (-4 per yard of maximum length) so it's a "favors defenders" type setup here, is what I meant.

Allowing judo guys to potentially have higher skill attacking doesn't favor defenders, so "delay until they begin the turn close to give them that benefit" somewhat resembles the delay in applying defensive limitations.

You're coming to the wrong conclusions.

The penalty is there because they are in close combat, not because of any sort of desire to help the defender. Reach above C gives -4 in close combat. That's why Attacker has it, because he is in close combat.

If he wasnt in close combat, he wouldn't get the penalty.

Hence, if he gets the close combat penalty - he's in close combat.

If stepping and attacking puts you in close combat, you can Judo Punch since it's a punch in close combat.

Even better, using your wrong interpretation, you wouldnt be able to attack with boxing punch or knife because they're reach C - attacks that happen in Close Combat, they cannot happen outside of Close Combat without special options. In any situation that you can make a C-range Knife attack or Boxing punch, you can make Judo Punch.

You're simply reading it wrong.

Even worse, you're assuming because Judo SL is higher than DX, it should be penalized somehow, as if Judo isnt a hard skill that you spend a lot of points on to get DX+1 or DX+2. That is wishful thinking to make the defender's life even easier and has no RAW reason to unfold, or balancing need for that.

[Sorenant]

Kromm recommends striking and grappling skills separately here so even if you could make a good case about striking with Judo skill, I'd say the spirit of the rule says otherwise.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Kromm recommends striking and grappling skills separately here so even if you could make a good case about striking with Judo skill, I'd say the spirit of the rule says otherwise.

Kromm also excludes straight up DX punch/kick, despite it being a thing in GURPS. That does not cancel the fact that you can punch/kick at DX, or that Judo allows you to use Judo SL instead of DX for all close combat rolls.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Kromm also excludes straight up DX punch/kick, despite it being a thing in GURPS. That does not cancel the fact that you can punch/kick at DX, or that Judo allows you to use Judo SL instead of DX for all close combat rolls.

So you're just completely ignoring my post, then?

[Plane]

MrFix re your initial list, one omission I just noticed is Pummeling, which MA101 lets you roll against DX-1 to hit with weapons.

This explicitly says "reach is always C" though (not sure if being SM+10 would override that or not) which would make the omission of "Judo-1" from that list even more innocuous, were it actually intended.

Originally Posted by MrFix

The penalty is there because they are in close combat, not because of any sort of desire to help the defender.

There is definitely a 'desire to help the defender' manifest in the errata for basic set. It's basically a "let's pretend they're not in close combat in a way which benefits the defender and not the attacker because they only just entered it this second" approach.

Without that errata, reach 1 weapons could not parry attacks if the attacker stepped into close combat. Now they can, as long as that step happened in the same turn as the attack.

The errata was no surprise, as there was already something of this idea with Runaround Attack rules, where you count as attacking from the side instead of the back, so long as you didn't begin your turn in the back.

It's the same principle: favor the defender as if circumstances were as they were at the start of the turn before the attacker did anything.

Originally Posted by MrFix

Reach above C gives -4 in close combat. That's why Attacker has it, because he is in close combat.

If he wasnt in close combat, he wouldn't get the penalty.

Hence, if he gets the close combat penalty - he's in close combat.

Based on the errata, when an attacker steps into close combat, the defender doesn't count as being in close combat in terms of parrying when defending on that turn.

I think this would probably still apply even with Martial Arts giving us rules which allow long weapons to parry in close combat: those would only apply on subsequent turns after the attacker stepped in.

Allowing a defender to avoid a -2 penalty to parry is kind of similar to giving the attacker a -4 to skill if he wouldn't spent that skill on a deceptive attack.

So I'm thinking penalize the attacker in another way: make the judoka wait until he's actually started his turn in close combat before allowing this "punch with judo" idea.

Originally Posted by MrFix

using your wrong interpretation, you wouldnt be able to attack with boxing punch or knife because they're reach C - attacks that happen in Close Combat, they cannot happen outside of Close Combat without special options. In any situation that you can make a C-range Knife attack or Boxing punch, you can make Judo Punch.

C-range knife attacks can be made against the limb of an unarmed attacker on a successful parry, even if that attacker wasn't in close combat.

It would be a stronger limit for punches if we made the AOA (Long) effect more accessible. Aside from burning valuable FP on Extra Effort. Technical grappling had Committed Attack (Long) which imposed a damage (well, control point, but damage is easily subbed) penalty (similar to Defensive Attack) instead of completely crippling defence.

I'd just make it a -4 to skill technique to do a +1 reach lunge.

Originally Posted by MrFix

Kromm also excludes straight up DX punch/kick, despite it being a thing in GURPS.

I don't remember that, do you recall where you saw it? I assume you mean a "straight up DX minus 2 kick" in the 2nd case, unless you're talking about kicking at DX-0 while lying face-up on one's back.

Was this maybe part of some idea of untrained people getting to use brawling at default? Non-defaults skills getting defaults is an idea promoted with "Wizardly Dabbler" so I'm fine with it.

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

That's not a DX roll, it's a skill roll with a default from DX.

Did you maybe mean 'technique roll' ? MA75 has "Kicking" which mentions the Brawl/Karate defaults but not the DX one. Punching isn't mentioned, I think because it's a primary-use technique which can't be bought up separately from the underlying skill (much like grappling)

Originally Posted by malloyd

That historical issue also hits this Judo = DX issue too, remember when that rule was written Judo was the only grappling skill in GURPS

Fun fact: this was actually a broader issue in 3e when Wrestling was added as the 2nd grappling skill and Sumo was added as the 3rd...

Page 243 of 3e's Basic Set:

You can use your Wrestling skill to replace DX in Close Combat, just as for Judo.

Which I figure refers back to page 51:

You may also use your Judo skill, instead of your DX, in any DX roll made in Close Combat except to draw a weapon or drop a shield.

Page 35 of 3e's Martial Arts:

You can substitute Sumo Wrestling for DX in these contests, and for any other use of DX in unarmed Close Combat.

That doesn't call out Judo specifically like Wrestling did in the 3e basic set, but I think "unarmed" would clearly also rule out not only weapon-drawing and shield-dropping, but Pummeling too. Not punches though =/

Looks like Wrestling and Sumo Wrestling got nerfed in 4e since B228's and B223's description of them did not retain that note from 3e's B243/MA35...

Or maybe these Wrestling/Sum notes removed to avoid this confusion regarding punching, and they intended but forgot to remove it for Judo?

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Plane

I don't remember that, do you recall where you saw it? I assume you mean a "straight up DX minus 2 kick" in the 2nd case, unless you're talking about kicking at DX-0 while lying face-up on one's back.

You can Punch at DX or DX-2, this is not a default, it's instinctive use of the body.

It appears in Basic Set's weapon tables that I quoted in my first post.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by MrFix

You can Punch at DX or DX-2, this is not a default, it's instinctive use of the body.

It appears in Basic Set's weapon tables that I quoted in my first post.

Sorry, I should have been more specific about which part of your quote I was asking about:

Originally Posted by MrFix

Kromm also excludes straight up DX punch/kick, despite it being a thing in GURPS.

I mean do you recall where you saw Kromm saying to exclude DX-punches (I already know it's a thing in GURPS)

I remember SOMEONE proposing just ignore DX defaults and let Brawling default to DX, but I can't remember who it was.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Anybody can punch or bite at DX for thrust-1 crushing, kick at DX-2 for thrust crushing

Here in 2013 he is supporting the rule you're talking about, for example.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Plane

Sorry, I should have been more specific about which part of your quote I was asking about:


I mean do you recall where you saw Kromm saying to exclude DX-punches (I already know it's a thing in GURPS)

I remember SOMEONE proposing just ignore DX defaults and let Brawling default to DX, but I can't remember who it was.


Here in 2013 he is supporting the rule you're talking about, for example.

In the list of Kromm Templates, he suggests getting both Striking and Grappling skill. It's linked earlier in the thread.

In this post, he does NOT mention DX for striking, just Brawling/Boxing/Karate. That's why when I wrote what I wrote, I quoted the post that said so.