A 10-pack of DFRPG questions

[tbone]

Aaaand here I am at it again, with 10 more DFRPG questions.

(Should I use a new thread for each such batch of questions? Savoire-Faire (Forum) mavens, please weigh in!)


1) A non-enchanting deal?

The Magic Weapons and Armor Table on Adventurers 118 says a $2000 Deflect enchantment provides a +1 Defense Bonus, which I understand would aid any defense.

Meanwhile, a $10,000 Defending Weapon/Shield enchantment also gives a +1 bonus, but to Parry or Block alone.

Am I missing something, or is the latter a really bad deal?


2) Going bow-less

I'm designing a smallish creature that throws smallish "javelins" - plain old arrows, in fact. (They're easy for the creatures to come by, and PCs on the receiving end of the attacks get to say "hey, free arrows!")

So what are appropriate stats for a thrown arrow? An arrow is cheaper and lighter than a javelin, dart, or even dagger; maybe thr-2 imp, Acc 1, x0.5/x1, ST 3, Bulk -3?

What do you think?


3) They grow so fast

Not really a question, just an observation: The tomb bug in Monsters 2 plays the ol' xenomorph and/or wasp trick of placing eggs in a host. Always a classic!

But I notice that at Size -1, the erupting hatchlings are each the size of a fair-sized dog, or a 10-year-old, or a gnome . . . and ten of these will burst out of a normal human victim.

Yeah, I know, it's fantasy . . . but just try imagining how those things fit in there. Maybe they, I don't know, burst out at a way smaller size, then instantly expand to SM -1, like those sponge dinosaur toys?

Or maybe the assumption is that the corpse just prior to eruption, now at -5xHP, is hugely, grotesquely bloated/distended?

Okay, pointless ruminations ended. Back to actual questions:


4) Bardic Talent as a prerequisite

Spells p7 says "Bardic Talent (Adventurers, p. 17) replaces Magery. The same level is needed as a prerequisite . . ."

So when I see a spell in an appropriate bardic college listing Magery 1 as a prerequisite, I understand that to mean "Magery 1 or Bardic Talent 1".

Yet some spells specifically note Bardic Talent anyway, like Detect Magic: "Wizardly: Magery 1 or Bardic Talent 1." Why specifically call out the latter for such spells, if Bardic Talent is already explained as a replacement for Magery?

Or in short: How does "Wizardly: Magery 1 or Bardic Talent 1" differ from just "Wizardly: Magery 1"?

(Wait, I think I see the answer now: Spells in appropriate bardic colleges always use the notation "Wizardly: Magery n or Bardic Talent m"; here, mentioning Bardic Talent isn't necessary, but it serves as a helpful reminder. Meanwhile, spells outside bardic colleges only say "Wizardly: Magery n", and it's understood for these that Bardic Talent is not a replacement. Sound right?)


5) Order of boolean operators in prerequisites

Take a prerequisite listing like "Wizardly: Magery 1 or Bardic Talent 1, and Foolishness." Does this mean a) "Wizardly: (Magery 1 or Bardic Talent 1), and Foolishness." or b) "Wizardly: Magery 1 or (Bardic Talent 1, and Foolishness)."?

I think it's a). Right?


6) Plant Control vs animals

The Plant Control spell notes, "Controls the actions of one large plant . . . A key spell for “green druids” – knowing it lets you use Beast Possession, Rider, Rider Within, and similar Animal spells on plant-class monsters!"

How exactly does this work? To cast Beast Possession on a triffid, do I first cast Plant Control at the usual time and cost, then cast Beast Possession at the usual time and cost, and then – if both succeeded – finally start roaming around in my mobile cabbage?


7) Defensive fast-draw

Say a kind-looking traveler suddenly attacks me as I ask him directions to the nearest necromancer lair. I resist surprise, but my sword is sheathed. Can I use Fast Draw to instantly bring the sword to hand and attempt a Parry? (Sounds like an obvious "yes" to me, but in all of GURPS and DFRPG, I don't recall ever seeing a mention of using Fast-Draw to instantly parry, only to instantly attack.)

Also: If I attempt this action but fail the Fast Draw roll, what happens? I assume that it's the same as if I'd failed the actual Parry; I didn't have any other defenses lined up (i.e., I'm not on All-Out Defense (Double Defense)), so I get whacked. Sound right?


8) Eye of death in the side pocket

When I wallop a creature for knockback, do I get to choose the direction in which it flies? Is this addressed anywhere in GURPS/DFRPG?


9) Bad deals, Part II

This one's puzzled me for some time.

Social Stigma (Minority Group) confers -2 on reactions, except among your own group, for -10 points.

Social Stigma (Savage) confers the same, but also -4 on certain skill rolls, and a possibility of being outright barred from town. This is also -10 points.

Shouldn't these carry different point values?


10) Glamour in Nordlondr Folk

This book offers Elven Glamour, which adds +4 to Disguise and Mimicry (Speech). Also: "Anyone observing you gets a Will roll at -5 to pierce the illusion."

How does this work? The target sees through the ruse by winning a contest of Perception or Observation vs the elf's Disguise +4, or a contest of IQ vs the elf's Mimicry +4 . . . but if the target fails that contest, he gets one more chance to pierce the illusion by succeeding at a straight-up Will -5 roll. Do I have that right?

And while we're here, there's the leveled Resistant to Glamour trait (p6), described as offering +5 to resist or see through illusions/glamour. If that's per level, then Resistant to Glamour 3 [3] confers a +15(!) bonus. Do I have that right?


Thanks in advance for any and all comments!

[Balor Patch]

10) I'd say a successful Will-5 roll negates the +4 to Disguise or Mimicry.

8) I certainly wouldn't allow the attacker to automatically choose knockback direction. I'd let it fly if a player wanted to take a -4 to hit in order to control the direction, but don't recall a rule on that either.

7) If you have a ready weapon you can parry, if you used Fast-draw then you have a ready weapon, but you can't use a Fast-Draw during an opponent's action without a Wait maneuver. I don't recall if the cascading waits rule made it to DFRPG, or if that would a allow a Fast-Draw without also allowing a pre-emptive attack?

6) It says "knowing it" not "using it". If you have learned the spell then you can treat plants as animals for those specific spells.

5) Yes, the Talents are one group while the item beyond the comma is a different group. SJG is nicely reliable on punctuation.

1) It is a bad deal, but if you've already got Deflect and a yachtload of cash then maybe you don't need to ask the price.

Similarly, going from +4 to +5 Puissance is probably less valuable then from +0 to +1 but fabulously more expensive. The prices could be much more rational if someone got excited about it.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by tbone

...

1) A non-enchanting deal?
...

I am guessing it is because Defense Bonus (DB) does not stack, so if you have a shield with Deflect +1 and a suit of armor with Deflect +2, you only have +2 DB since it is the higher one. It also is only useful if you are using a shield, if you have a suit of armor with Deflect +2 but no shield, then you can't utilize that +2 DB. After all, Defense Bonus is what shields provide when used. This enchantment increases that, but you still need to use that shield.

Defending Weapon/Shield on the other hand always works, because you are either using the weapon/shield or not. Also note, this stacks with Deflect!

So if you have a character that uses a shield all the time, you can take Defending Shield +2 and Deflect +2 for +2 DB and +2 to block on top of that. This is cheaper than Deflect +3.

Originally Posted by tbone

2) Going bow-less
...

I agree with what you have, the weight is similar to a spike shuriken but more flimsy and longer which is reflected with your ST 3 and Bulk -3.

Originally Posted by tbone

3) They grow so fast
...

Yeah, I would assume the body is somewhat bloated too, you would be surprised how big things can be inside another body, check out parasites in fish. Some of those things are almost as big as the fish, but the fish is still alive!

Originally Posted by tbone

...
4) Bardic Talent as a prerequisite
...

The mentioning of Bard Talent is to let you know what level it needs to be to learn that spell. This is only seen within the allowed colleges for Bards.

Page 7 of DF Spells:
"Bards are limited to the Communication and Empathy, Knowledge,
Mind Control, and Sound colleges."

A Bard can not learn any other spells unless they also have Magery 0+.

Page 73 of DF Spells:
"Wizardly. An asterisk (*) indicates the spell is available
to bards who can meet its prerequisites. Spells in colleges
allowed to bards sometimes have prerequisites that
fall outside such colleges; these are still marked because
elven and half-elven bards with Magery 0 could learn those
prerequisites!"

Originally Posted by tbone

5) Order of boolean operators in prerequisites
...

It's A.

Originally Posted by tbone

6) Plant Control vs animals
...

Key word there is "Knowing". I take that as saying: In order to use Beast Possession, Rider, Rider Within, and similar Animal spells on plant-class monsters you must also have the Plant Control Spell.

In other words, think of it as a prerequisite spell.

Originally Posted by tbone

7) Defensive fast-draw
...

You have to go outside those sources and into Martial Arts for the answer.

Page 103 of Martial Arts:

"• One fighter has a ready weapon; his opponent knows Fast-Draw.
Roll a Quick Contest. The ready fighter uses weapon skill; his only
modifier is +1 if he has Combat Reflexes. The unready fighter uses
Fast-Draw skill modified as for a Quick Contest of Fast-Draw (above),
with an additional -10! The winner strikes first. In a tie, the fighter
with the ready weapon strikes first."

More details on that page.

Originally Posted by tbone

8) Eye of death in the side pocket
...

It flies in the opposite direction; It flies away from you. Now, as GM, if your player says they attacked with a swinging attack, then as some flavor, their target COULD fly in whatever direction they hit it. (Baseball bat swing image here).

But as far as rules go, knockback is the direction that is infront of you.

Originally Posted by tbone

9) Bad deals, Part II
...

You are trading no negative reaction to people within your own group with skill penalties. Being barred from towns is not really worth points. Basically -4 to certain skills and being thrown out of town is almost the same as no reaction penalty from own people + not being thrown out of town.

Note that the cost of these disadvantages can vary depending on the type of game you are playing! In a game were everyone is a savage, then social stigma (Savage) would not give you any points!

Originally Posted by tbone

10) Glamour in Nordlondr Folk
...

The +4 to Disguise and Mimicry (Speech) should be thought of as separate. The Elf is better than most people at disguise and mimicry because they have Glamour. They can attempt to dress up as someone else and change the way they talk to mimic someone else, both usage does not require the use of their Glamour, but they still get +4 to those skill rolls. If they decide to do away with practical disguises and use their Glamour ability, then anyone that sees them gets a Will-5 roll.

So the best thing to do for a trickster is to first dress up as a target, mimic their speech, then glamour as another target! If someone breaks the glamour then they may still mistake you for the other!

Resistant to Glamour trait is +1 per level, and each level cost 1 point. the wording of the description is for what the Hálfálfar has in its stat block (Resistant to Glamour 5 [5]) which is +5 resistance. This is because in DF, resistance to something is 1 point per level per +1 to resist.

[tbone]

Thanks for the replies to my questions, and my apologies for replying in turn so slowly. To add commentary to a few items:

1) A non-enchanting deal?

Originally Posted by zoncxs

I am guessing it is because Defense Bonus (DB) does not stack, so if you have a shield with Deflect +1 and a suit of armor with Deflect +2, you only have +2 DB since it is the higher one. It also is only useful if you are using a shield, if you have a suit of armor with Deflect +2 but no shield, then you can't utilize that +2 DB. After all, Defense Bonus is what shields provide when used. This enchantment increases that, but you still need to use that shield.

Defending Weapon/Shield on the other hand always works, because you are either using the weapon/shield or not. Also note, this stacks with Deflect!

I can't say I follow that. Seems to me that $2,000 of Deflect for armor gives a +1 DB (i.e., +1 on any AD) as long as you wear that armor . . . no weapon or shield needed, and the protection is good vs attacks from any direction. $2,000 of Deflect for a shield also gives a +1 DB, though presumably only vs attacks that the shield could block. Meanwhile, $10,000 of Defending Weapon/Shield for a weapon or shield gives a +1 only to Parry or only to Block, and only vs attacks that could be parried or blocked.

As far as I can tell, this is a no-brainer: get Deflect for armor or for shield (though not both), then get Defending Weapon/Shield later if you've got big gold to burn. The latter is definitely less bang for the buck.

2) Going bow-less

For now, I'll stick with my suggested stats for a thrown arrow: thr-2 imp, Acc 1, x0.5/x1, ST 3, Bulk -3. I'll also assume that the slower speed of a thrown object precludes the armor-piercing effect of a bodkin arrow. (I assume that bodkin isn't offered as an option for darts, javelins, etc. for the same reason.)

7) Defensive fast-draw

I remain unsure what the official answer might be, but for myself, I'll continue allowing Fast-Draw to instantly ready a weapon for parrying. It seems sensible to me and adds more value to Fast-Draw, which is really quite expensive (esp. in the +4/level range) for a single physical motion.

9) Bad deals, Part II

Originally Posted by zoncxs

You are trading no negative reaction to people within your own group with skill penalties. Being barred from towns is not really worth points. Basically -4 to certain skills and being thrown out of town is almost the same as no reaction penalty from own people + not being thrown out of town.

Again, not sure I follow. The wording differs for the two disads, but both hit you with -2 on reactions except from your own kind. Then Social Stigma (Savage) tacks on an additional -4 to important skill rolls. The "barred from town" factor, too, is definitely a real disad, keeping a PC from buying, selling, seeking healing, etc. (I'd say it'd be worth considerable points on its own, though much less as a part of Savage because of its low frequency of occurrence.)

It remains strange to me that these two disads have the same value.

10) Glamour in Nordlondr Folk

Regarding that roll to pierce Glamour, perhaps we can hear from the author later on how it's intended to work.

About resistance:

Originally Posted by zoncxs

Resistant to Glamour trait is +1 per level, and each level cost 1 point. the wording of the description is for what the Hálfálfar has in its stat block (Resistant to Glamour 5 [5]) which is +5 resistance.

Ah, the "+5" is referring to the specific statted creature. (Oddly worded text.) Got it!

Thanks again. I'll have new questions again later – probably in a new thread, for better visibility.

[Kalzazz]

I admit I usually consider the kicked out of town roll the worst part of Social Stigma - Savage

I'm not playing a Half Ogre with an IQ penalty to be a social butterfly, but I do want to go shopping and not roll wandering monster checks

[tbone]

On that Social Stigma question:

I'm pretty sure it's been asked before - and it has been. Including by me. (Oops.)

Here's the thread:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=153076

And the summary of Kromm's answer:

Both disads carry a -2 on reactions, but different in scope:

Social Stigma (Minority Group): -2 on reaction rolls for all purposes from everybody but those in your minority group.

Social Stigma (Savage): -2 on reaction rolls and -4 on skill rolls for negotiations from everybody but those of your kind, and 6 or less chance of being barred from town.

I believe the problem is this: I read "-2 on reaction rolls and -4 on skill rolls for negotiations" as

"-2 on reaction rolls and (-4 on skill rolls for negotiations)";

Kromm's reply above suggests that the correct reading is

"(-2 on reaction rolls and -4 on skill rolls) for negotiations"

Using the latter reading, I can understand how the two versions of Social Stigma could fairly carry the same cost. So that settles it for me (a second time; until I forget again).

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by tbone

Thanks for the replies to my questions, and my apologies for replying in turn so slowly. To add commentary to a few items:

1) A non-enchanting deal?



I can't say I follow that. Seems to me that $2,000 of Deflect for armor gives a +1 DB (i.e., +1 on any AD) as long as you wear that armor . . . no weapon or shield needed, and the protection is good vs attacks from any direction. $2,000 of Deflect for a shield also gives a +1 DB, though presumably only vs attacks that the shield could block. Meanwhile, $10,000 of Defending Weapon/Shield for a weapon or shield gives a +1 only to Parry or only to Block, and only vs attacks that could be parried or blocked.

As far as I can tell, this is a no-brainer: get Deflect for armor or for shield (though not both), then get Defending Weapon/Shield later if you've got big gold to burn. The latter is definitely less bang for the buck.

DF Adventurers page 118

"[2] Defense Bonus adds to that of any mundane shield. If both shield and armor have Deflect, only the highest magical DB applies. See Defense Bonus (Exploits, p. 47)."

Defense Bonus is useless without a shield. The reason for applying the enchantment to your armor and not on the shield is because it would then work with any shield you wield. It is useful on the shield since that means you don't have to wear the full suit of armor to benefit from the enchantment, and since the enchantment is only beneficial if you are using a shield it makes sense. Applying the enchantment to both is ideal if you got the money to spend, it means, as long as you have a shield, that you will always benefit from it.

But overall, it does look like you get it. It was just that one thing you missed.

Originally Posted by tbone

10) Glamour in Nordlondr Folk

Regarding that roll to pierce Glamour, perhaps we can hear from the author later on how it's intended to work.

About resistance:

Ah, the "+5" is referring to the specific statted creature. (Oddly worded text.) Got it!

Thanks again. I'll have new questions again later – probably in a new thread, for better visibility.

Don't start a new thread! keep all the questions here so that they can all be found easily! Also you could update the first post with all the questions and answers!

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

DF Adventurers page 118
"[2] Defense Bonus adds to that of any mundane shield. If both shield and armor have Deflect, only the highest magical DB applies. See Defense Bonus (Exploits, p. 47)."

Defense Bonus is useless without a shield. The reason for applying the enchantment to your armor and not on the shield is because it would then work with any shield you wield. It is useful on the shield since that means you don't have to wear the full suit of armor to benefit from the enchantment, and since the enchantment is only beneficial if you are using a shield it makes sense. Applying the enchantment to both is ideal if you got the money to spend, it means, as long as you have a shield, that you will always benefit from it.

By that theory a shield's DB isn't useful unless there is also a magical DB to add to it. As long as one of the DB values you are adding is positive, it's useful.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

Defense Bonus is useless without a shield.

That might be the official ruling, but I'm not seeing it from the text. It suggests that, say, +2 DB cast on armor does nothing, until I pick up a shield, or garbage can lid, or anything shleld-ish, then the armor's DB suddenly kicks in (or is transferred to the shield?). And that doesn't feel like the intent to me.

As further argument, I'll note a similar magical enhancement: the Protect Animal spell, which gives +3 DB to its subjects, with no shields needed.

I wouldn't be surprised if the workings of Deflect on armor have already been well discussed on the forum. . . and, I just found a discussion here. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=153471

Again, I'm not seeing a clear ruling of "Deflect on Armor requires no shield to work," but post #8 suggests that to me.

Originally Posted by zoncxs

Don't start a new thread! keep all the questions here so that they can all be found easily! Also you could update the first post with all the questions and answers!

Sounds neat & clean to me, too, but I imagine there are people who would peek at a new thread out of curiosity, while passing over an old one as "probably just more comments on old stuff". I think I'll try a new one next time just to see whether it gets more commentary!

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by tbone

That might be the official ruling, but I'm not seeing it from the text. It suggests that, say, +2 DB cast on armor does nothing, until I pick up a shield, or garbage can lid, or anything shleld-ish, then the armor's DB suddenly kicks in (or is transferred to the shield?). And that doesn't feel like the intent to me.

As further argument, I'll note a similar magical enhancement: the Protect Animal spell, which gives +3 DB to its subjects, with no shields needed.

I wouldn't be surprised if the workings of Deflect on armor have already been well discussed on the forum. . . and, I just found a discussion here. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=153471

Again, I'm not seeing a clear ruling of "Deflect on Armor requires no shield to work," but post #8 suggests that to me.

You know what, you are right, I was overthinking it. I got caught up with terminology and where it is applied. Defense bonus is only found on shields, no where else (excluding spells).

Originally Posted by tbone

Sounds neat & clean to me, too, but I imagine there are people who would peek at a new thread out of curiosity, while passing over an old one as "probably just more comments on old stuff". I think I'll try a new one next time just to see whether it gets more commentary!

Problem with that is Moderators might hit you and fuse the threads together. Plus people who see a thread STILL active will more than likely check it out, and if you are updating the first post with added questions with answer then it would be more helpful for everyone. Not to mention the easy of searching.