[Martial Arts/Thaumatology] Magical Styles for Martial Arts styles

[AlexanderHowl]

Well, the primary issue would be having a magical system fast enough to function during combat. Some form of RPM is a possibility, but Path/Book Magic would be unlikely, especially the Energy Accumulation varieties. In addition, it would likely result in a practitioner who is not terribly good at either discipline.

Of course, you could potentially make a pure magical matrial art style. RPM would not be a bad choice in that case, though greater effects would probably be too slow for combat. Conditional spells would be quite useful, and I can imagine that many practitioners would have a number ready to use for martial purposes. Year long durations would likely be quite common.

For example, a ritual that gave an individual ST+3, DX+3, HT+3, Basic Speed +2.00, Combat Reflexes, Fit, and High Pain Threshold would likely cost around 200 energy, so increasing the duration to a year would only add 21 energy. Such a ritual could make practically anyone an excellent warrior if they had some basic training, so I would not be surprised if magicians had basic training and then modified themselves through their magic to make themselves excellent martial artists. In that case, any style would likely serve.

[Refplace]

I have a couple on my blog.
Duat is a deep understanding of Life and Death and a powers based martial art.
Stones Breath is based off Chi as Sorcery from Pyramid.
The Way of the Elements is a set of setting styles based off GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Magic.
Thunder and Lightning is a dwarven style that uses Imbuement skills.

[dcarson]

From back in 2007 a nice writeup of Bending martial arts. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=30806

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Well, the primary issue would be having a magical system fast enough to function during combat. Some form of RPM is a possibility, but Path/Book Magic would be unlikely, especially the Energy Accumulation varieties. In addition, it would likely result in a practitioner who is not terribly good at either discipline.

One thing that a lot of people seem to ignore about Path/Book Magic is that you can use rituals to make charms, much as you can with Ritual Path Magic (which is, after all, just a specific worked example of Energy Accumulating Path/Book Magic), and use the charms in combat. Fast Draw (Charm) is a skill that would be either optional or required for any style that has a Path/Book or RPM magical style attached to it (or possibly Fast Draw for a specific type of charm, like gris-gris bags or ofuda).

Originally Posted by Refplace

I have a couple on my blog.
Duat is a deep understanding of Life and Death and a powers based martial art.
Stones Breath is based off Chi as Sorcery from Pyramid.
The Way of the Elements is a set of setting styles based off GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Magic.
Thunder and Lightning is a dwarven style that uses Imbuement skills.

Originally Posted by dcarson

From back in 2007 a nice writeup of Bending martial arts. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=30806

Thank you both, going to have a look at these.

EDIT: Yes, these have my interest.

[Prince Charon]

My current notes on a Force-Swordsmanship-based Magical style for the Monks of Ashla, a sect of 'martial pacifists' (they won't start trouble, but are trained to finish it, if required to) who occasionally act as peacekeepers in various parts of known space; some say that their founding myth was first spoken of on the ancient homeworld of humanity, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. I currently haven't decided whether the magic in the setting is based on mana, psi, chi, or some form of quantum mathematics (the latter will add Mathematics (Pure) to the required skills for their form of Force-Swordsmanship).

The style of Force-Swordsmanship that the Monks of Ashla use has Meditation in Required Skills, and a Special Exercises perk for Magery (though they prefer to take students who are already mages). Possibly, it might have separate Special Exercises perks for Magery 0 and Magery (One Style Only) or Magery (Limited Styles). Still working on that. Parry Missile Weapons may become a prerequisite for Deflect Missiles, or it may just be dropped. Beam Weapons skills are optional for the style, but some masters, and some monasteries/sub-sects, make them required. A few even prefer blasters over force-swords (which is a very different style, indeed), while others disdain weapons, and have an unarmed combat style that they focus on (in both cases, the style they use should also have the Special Exercises perks, and use a reasonably similar magical style).

I'm imagining magic in this setting being powered by an Energy Reserve based on Will+Magery. If at less than 1/3 of your ER, Will rolls are at -5. If at ER 0, you must roll Will+Magery-5 to avoid unconsciousness. Trying to spend ER after reaching 0 results in spending HP, instead (or possibly FP, but at twice the cost, and then HP, if you're somehow still conscious by then). I'm also thinking that this is a setting where magic is normally learned by style, with the Colleges merely being one of several theoretical ways of organizing magic.

For those who care, I'm currently thinking that training force-swords, and variable force-swords in training mode, do 1d-5(0.5) burn, as do blasters set to 'sting' - being hit still hurts, but that's about it. Of course, force-swords in training mode may also do cr damage as a low-mass baton of the same length.

I may be splitting this off into a couple of related styles, rather than just one... if I can figure out which spells to put in which style. Maybe have a basic style that branches into 'nature-focused,' 'more material,' and 'more esoteric' versions? I do intend to do a 'Dark' variant, probably with the word 'Bogan' in the name (Lords of Bogan? Bogan Order?); it should include things like faster healing with a higher risk of 'unnatural' side effects (e.g. 'you're healed, but there's now a chance that you might have magic cancer'), a prerequisite chain leading to Choke, and a Shortcut to Power perk for Lightning.

What I have now is mostly prerequisite chains. Spells in parentheses were already listed, and show where one chain branches off from another.

Communication and Empathy

Sense Foes > Sense Emotion > Hide Emotion > Hide Thoughts
(Sense Emotion) > Truthsayer > Mind-Reading > Mind-Sending > Telepathy
(Mind-Reading) > Mind-Search
Sense Life


Healing

Lend Energy > Lend Vitality> Vigor > Enduring Vigor

I have decided that Healing magic in this setting, or at least the safe form of it, is not instant, but rather works with the subjects body to accelerate natural healing. 'Enduring Vigor' is a new spell I'm working on that is basically 'Vigor but the Duration is longer than a minute,' though whether that should be an hour or a day I'm not sure. The next spell in the chain will probably be something that gives the subject Regeneration (Slow) for a day, so maybe Enduring Vigor should last for an hour, or there should be another spell between Enduring Vigor and that one; what do you think?


Knowledge

Still deciding on what needs to go here, beyond one or more forms of Divination (currently thinking Oneiromancy and some form of Meditation-based variant).


Making and Breaking

Shortcut to Power perk > Find Weakness > Weaken > Shatter


Meta-Spells

Not sure if this should be part of the main style, or a secondary branch.


Mind Control

Keen Vision & Keen Hearing > Alertness
Foolishness > Daze > Mental Stun > Emotion Control
(Foolishness) > Forgetfulness (& Emotion Control) > Suggestion


Movement

Haste > Great Haste
Apportation > Deflect Missile
(Apportation) > Jump
(Apportation) > Poltergeist


Protection and Warning

Sense Danger > Sense Observation
(Sense Danger) > Detect Poison
(Deflect Missile) > Catch Missile > Return Missile
(Apportation) > Missile Shield > Reverse Missiles


Thoughts?

[AlexanderHowl]

It would be better to avoid spells and instead focus on powers if you wanted something fast enough for combat. The turn required to cast standard spells in combat could be deadly against mundane fighter who focused on actual combat skills. The spell is cast at the end of the last second of concentration, not the end of the last turn of concentration, which means that people who go after you in the combat sequence can interrupt anything but a Blocking spell.

There is also the question of the FP economy. Not only can the delay caused by casting spells be deadly, the FP cost could be deadly as well. For example, Vigor costs 2 FP per +1 HT per minute, meaning that a fighter that spent 10 FP to gain +5 HT would likely be so exhausted that they would die in combat before the minute was up.

If I wanted to have a martial arts style that used the standard system, I would focus on Blocking Spells that require only Magery 1 and a few spells at most in order to increase utility. For example, I would probably have a magical martial arts style include one of the following chains:

Ignite > Shape Fire > Defect Energy

Apportation > Deflect Missile > Catch Missile > Return Missile

With deflect energy, the mage would deflect lasers. With return missile, they could reflect bullets. Without having to worry about missile attacks, the martial artist could focus on melee combat.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

If I wanted to have a martial arts style that used the standard system, I would focus on Blocking Spells that require only Magery 1 and a few spells at most in order to increase utility. For example, I would probably have a magical martial arts style include one of the following chains:

Ignite > Shape Fire > Defect Energy

Apportation > Deflect Missile > Catch Missile > Return Missile

With deflect energy, the mage would deflect lasers. With return missile, they could reflect bullets. Without having to worry about missile attacks, the martial artist could focus on melee combat.

Spells like Concussion can be useful for crowd control. Grease with ground fighting can give an edge to the stylist.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It would be better to avoid spells and instead focus on powers if you wanted something fast enough for combat. The turn required to cast standard spells in combat could be deadly against mundane fighter who focused on actual combat skills. The spell is cast at the end of the last second of concentration, not the end of the last turn of concentration, which means that people who go after you in the combat sequence can interrupt anything but a Blocking spell.

There are ways around that, both by having a sufficiently high skill, and by taking the right perks or advantages (the immediate one in my mind is Fast Casting under Extra Option, Magical Styles p24, though depending on the setting, the perk may not be needed).

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

There is also the question of the FP economy. Not only can the delay caused by casting spells be deadly, the FP cost could be deadly as well. For example, Vigor costs 2 FP per +1 HT per minute, meaning that a fighter that spent 10 FP to gain +5 HT would likely be so exhausted that they would die in combat before the minute was up.

The system I'm currently imagining for this style uses ER, not FP, and Vigor specifically is intended as a Healing spell in this context (or rather, a prerequisite for better Healing spells). It's not supposed to be used in combat, it's supposed to be used after combat if you don't know a better Healing spell, yet.

Other options that I'm considering are to use some form of Threshold-Limited Magic, with the Threshold, Recovery Rate, or both being calculated from Will or Will+Magery. Another one is that the 'cost' is that you use the Fright Check Table as a Mental Stress check, with the energy cost from the book being a penalty to the Will+Magery roll. I might combine the latter with the Will-based ER system, so instead of taking Will penalties and then needing to roll to avoid losing consciousness, you roll on the Fright Check table if your ER gets to low, to represent the mental stress of exceeding your limits.

[finn]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The turn required to cast standard spells in combat could be deadly against mundane fighter who focused on actual combat skills. The spell is cast at the end of the last second of concentration, not the end of the last turn of concentration, which means that people who go after you in the combat sequence can interrupt anything but a Blocking spell.

Actually, you cannot interupt a one second spell unless you Wait.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-4.html#SS4.1.9

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It would be better to avoid spells and instead focus on powers if you wanted something fast enough for combat. The turn required to cast standard spells in combat could be deadly against mundane fighter who focused on actual combat skills. The spell is cast at the end of the last second of concentration, not the end of the last turn of concentration, which means that people who go after you in the combat sequence can interrupt anything but a Blocking spell.

There is also the question of the FP economy. Not only can the delay caused by casting spells be deadly, the FP cost could be deadly as well. For example, Vigor costs 2 FP per +1 HT per minute, meaning that a fighter that spent 10 FP to gain +5 HT would likely be so exhausted that they would die in combat before the minute was up.

If I wanted to have a martial arts style that used the standard system, I would focus on Blocking Spells that require only Magery 1 and a few spells at most in order to increase utility. For example, I would probably have a magical martial arts style include one of the following chains:

Ignite > Shape Fire > Defect Energy

Apportation > Deflect Missile > Catch Missile > Return Missile

With deflect energy, the mage would deflect lasers. With return missile, they could reflect bullets. Without having to worry about missile attacks, the martial artist could focus on melee combat.

I think you may not have noticed an important change from GURPS 3e. Spells in 4e take effect as soon as you're done concentrating (at the end of your turn).
Also, I'll mention here one of the most important and often forgotten spells: Delay. This spell allows you to do something similar to the "charms" of other magic systems, which is to say you can "pre-cast" your buff spells (like Vigor) and trigger the Delay when the action starts.

Having played many campaigns with standard magic, I can assure you that it's more than fast enough for combat if used correctly. Plenty of powerful offensive spells have a one second casting time, and with sufficiently high skill, you can learn to cast a few key spells for no energy in one second. For example, with Create Animal-20 you can create a wolf in one second for no energy. With Mental Stun-20 you can throw stun spells at your enemies all day (and if you're a martial caster, you can then proceed to pound the stunned foe with your staff--in DF games the party typically has some Weapon Master sword-swingers that will take care of that part for you).

If you can learn a few spells at 25, you're in godlike territory. Great Haste at 25 means that in one second, for a mere 2 energy, you can give yourself Altered Time Rate and turn into an ultimate fighting machine. Sleep at 25 means that you can put enemies to Sleep in one second for no energy! The list goes on and on.

And then of course there are the Blocking spells, chief among them being Blink. This spell is insane in the hands of a fighting wizard. Try Blinking behind an enemy during their turn, while they're attacking you. Now you're starting your next turn behind them...
And don't forget to buy Blocking Spell Mastery (Blink) so that you can Blink multiple times per turn!