2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by hcobb

ITL 102: "(b) CHARGE ATTACK. Move up to half its MA and attack with any weapon except a missile weapon, or HTH."

But… a Charge Attack involves a Charge (hence the name), and you end up adjacent to the target, right? This is not the case with a jab.

Plus, ITL 112 says a jab is a regular attack, and even specifies that a 2-hex jab cannot be combined with a charge (so no bonus damage).

I suppose that's overly literal nitpicking, but it seems like there should have been another letter in the list of Options, specifically for Jab Attack.

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

… The current presentation of available actions is very confusing and a little incomplete and to be fair redundant.

YES. It is very confusing, and poorly organized. That list of Options could be presented in a much better way.

In fact, that's exactly why I asked. I'm creating my own custom player aid, because that ugly (disorganized, incomplete, and occasionally redundant) text list is not friendly, inviting, or even especially helpful to new players.

[hcobb]

You can make a charge attack with a thrown weapon, such as a spear thrower. You don't need to be next to anybody for that.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

There is a difference between a charge attack with a pole arm or against it. One requires 3 hex straight movement, the other that the enemy start disengaged and end up engaged with you (even after you stand still and turn). This is just a qualifyer for first strike, +2 DX and pole arm extra damage. The "Charge" and attack option has nothing to do with that, since it applies to all weapons. It could just as easily have been called "move and attack" or "possibly move and attack".

There are basically only four different kinds of moves.
- Full move, nothing else can be done.
- Half move, everything but missile attacks, spellcasting can be done.
- 1 step move, which allows missile and spell attacks. And can be done when
engaged if you keep being engaged by all oponents.
- Stand up, you can't do anything else. (OR crawl 2 hexes)

No matter the move you get to rotate for free.

After your move, you can choose your action freely, limited by the move you actually did. IF you stood still or only moved 1 step you can do anything. If you moved more than half move, you pretty much do nothing. Easy. New players don't need to know much more than that.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

In reality, this is what happens in a turn.

- Initiative roll.
- During move you decide if you want to move and how much. The more you move the less options you will have later.

Dodge and Defend can break DX order. If you use the optional rule of delayed action, that can also break order. It is adjusted DX (without ranged mods) that counts, which is a pain. The easiest way is to go by adjDX after armor, shield and damage penalties (those modifiers that are constant no matter what action you will chose).

- In DX order, you exceute one action that is allowed, usually limited by how far you moved. You do the action, then the next guy.

^ YES

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

There is a difference between a charge attack with a pole arm or against it. One requires 3 hex straight movement, the other that the enemy start disengaged and end up engaged with you (even after you stand still and turn). This is just a qualifyer for first strike, +2 DX and pole arm extra damage. The "Charge" and attack option has nothing to do with that, since it applies to all weapons. It could just as easily have been called "move and attack" or "possibly move and attack".

^ YES

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

There are basically only four different kinds of moves.
- Full move, nothing else can be done.
- Half move, everything but missile attacks, spellcasting can be done.
- 1 step move, which allows missile and spell attacks. And can be done when
engaged if you keep being engaged by all oponents.
- Stand up, you can't do anything else. (OR crawl 2 hexes)

No matter the move you get to rotate for free.

After your move, you can choose your action freely, limited by the move you actually did. IF you stood still or only moved 1 step you can do anything. If you moved more than half move, you pretty much do nothing. Easy. New players don't need to know much more than that.

YES.
Except you left one out: there is also an option for figures that moved TWO hexes or less, to sling ready weapons and ready other weapons.

Originally Posted by FireHorse

But… a Charge Attack involves a Charge (hence the name), and you end up adjacent to the target, right? This is not the case with a jab.

A "charge attack" is moving from non-adjacent to adjacent, as defined in the pole weapon rules, and qualifies pole weapons to the +1 die damage defensive attacks.

"Charge Attack" is the confusing name of option (b), which is a hold-over from original Melee, before there were jabs or other distinctions about it. As mentioned by others above, option (b) would be more accurately named "attack with zero up to 1/2 MA movement", to avoid confusion with the above concept (which DOES confuse some people - there are pages and pages of discussion about it).

Originally Posted by FireHorse

... I'm creating my own custom player aid, because that ugly (disorganized, incomplete, and occasionally redundant) text list is not friendly, inviting, or even especially helpful to new players.

Sure, so call it Jab Attack, available to figures moving 0 to 1/2 their MA (regardless of their engagement status), can be defended against even by unengaged figures.

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

… The "Charge" and attack option has nothing to do with that, since it applies to all weapons. It could just as easily have been called "move and attack" or "possibly move and attack".

Yes, it could have been. And it would have been better to avoid inviting confusion.

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

There are basically only four different kinds of moves.
… (snipped simple, easy to understand summary)
… Easy. …

Ayup. One wonders why the Rules As Written are not presented so simply.

Originally Posted by Skarg

A "charge attack" is moving from non-adjacent to adjacent, as defined in the pole weapon rules, and qualifies pole weapons to the +1 die damage defensive attacks.

But not the 2-hex Jab, right?

[hcobb]

Why shouldn't a Cavalry Lance impact at two hexes in front of the horse's head? Given P as the pony's head on the diagram on page ITL 132, shouldn't the lance only be able to hit hexes X, Y and Z?

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Why shouldn't a Cavalry Lance impact at two hexes in front of the horse's head? Given P as the pony's head on the diagram on page ITL 132, shouldn't the lance only be able to hit hexes X, Y and Z?

I think this ought to depend on exactly how you're defining the word "lance". I've seen some things called lances that aren't much more than longish spears, but I've seen other lances that are just as long as pikes.

For a really long lance (and using the same illustration you referenced), I'd say you can hit everything except Y and Z.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by FireHorse

But not the 2-hex Jab, right?

Right, 2-hex jabs have nothing to do with charge attacks, unless by "charge attack" someone is talking about the name for option (b), which does allow 2-hex jabs.

Originally Posted by hcobb

Why shouldn't a Cavalry Lance impact at two hexes in front of the horse's head? Given P as the pony's head on the diagram on page ITL 132, shouldn't the lance only be able to hit hexes X, Y and Z?

Because a cavalry lance in TFT is taken to be shorter than a pike, and equivalent in effective length to a normal polearm, and so the RAW is they're equivalent and you need to use adjDX to determine if it goes before a normal polearm or not.

However one might prefer to do some research and/or develop other house rules. GURPS actually takes the length of each lance into account - you can buy a longer lance though it's harder to hit with.

[hcobb]

A four and a half yard long lance (as given on ITL 109) is going to be held with the butt end no further back than the rear end of the horse. So will impact at least five and a half feet in front of the head of the horse. Anybody in the hex directly in front of the horse is already past the head of the lance.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Except you left one out: there is also an option for figures that moved TWO hexes or less, to sling ready weapons and ready other weapons.

LOL, no matter how many times I look at these rules I always find something strange and new. I can't remember we have ever run it like that. We always just used to do a half move and Ready a Weapon. Cool.

On second thought, I don't really like the rule though. Why should I only be able to move 2 hexes, why not a half move or a 1 step? Why 2?!? Not exactly logical. We don't have an MA payment system for actions. So no matter my MA, I can still only move 2 and only for this particular action. I always assumed that the crawl 2 hexes were for the purpose of getting away from someone's engagement zone if you started your movement underfoot. But I see no special reason for the Ready a Weapon 2 hex move limit.

Good catch Skarg!