How to make Telekinesis take targeting penalties (range, SM, etc.)?

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Raekai

My thought was to add Melee Attack, C, -30%; then add Ranged, +40%; then add Increased Range, LOS, +40% for a neat total of +50% (or ~+25% for Multiplicative Modifiers). It's a bit weird, but it seems like it should work

A rather strange way to go about it.

Given that the pricing of Melee is probably assuming the 100 yard default range of Innate Attack / Binding / Affliction, I don't really think it should be worth as many points for an ability that starts at a mere 10 yards. You really ought to take x10 range first to get it to that base 100 before taking melee...

Given that TK is already ranged to begin with, taking melee and then ranged again is pretty overcomplicated. I think that if you want to take Increased Range, LOS (which like melee, I think assumes a 100 yard baseline) that you should just increase 10 yards to 100 yards first and then take it as usual.

The weird thing about TK range is that the range actually does a couple things:

1) the maximum range your TK hands can move away from you (or you from them)
2) the max range your TK hands can be CREATED from you

I could actually see treating these as separate ranges, maybe requiring separate enhancements? It could be interesting to have someone who could send their TK hands up to 1000 yards away, but who could only create them out of thin air within 10 yards of themself, as an example.

Perhaps that could be treated like the 1/2D statistic, as a secondary sort of range which could be lesser or equal?

Does anyone know what happens if your hands are the max distance from you and then you suffer knockback away from them, increasing the distance between you BEYOND the max?

Not sure if that means they would instantly vanish, or just freeze and not be able to manipulate what they're doing before you get close again...

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Short-Ranged (PU8:17) is what you want here; 2 levels of it will take you from no range penalties to following SSR like a normal ranged attack. This would come into play on any action that requires you to roll, but as simply holding something (or bringing it to yourself) requires no roll, this usage will be unaffected (actually grabbing the thing to start with, however, would require a roll, and thus would be penalized). This would be Telekinesis (Increased Range, LOS +70%, Short-Ranged 2 -20%) [7.5]/level. Interestingly, it works out to the same net +50% as you calculated with a more roundabout method.

Excellent! This seems like a better way of going about it—simply changing how the range works instead of removing range then re-adding range. I'll go with this as my solution. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Plane

A rather strange way to go about it.

Given that the pricing of Melee is probably assuming the 100 yard default range of Innate Attack / Binding / Affliction, I don't really think it should be worth as many points for an ability that starts at a mere 10 yards. You really ought to take x10 range first to get it to that base 100 before taking melee...

Given that TK is already ranged to begin with, taking melee and then ranged again is pretty overcomplicated. I think that if you want to take Increased Range, LOS (which like melee, I think assumes a 100 yard baseline) that you should just increase 10 yards to 100 yards first and then take it as usual.

The weird thing about TK range is that the range actually does a couple things:

1) the maximum range your TK hands can move away from you (or you from them)
2) the max range your TK hands can be CREATED from you

I could actually see treating these as separate ranges, maybe requiring separate enhancements? It could be interesting to have someone who could send their TK hands up to 1000 yards away, but who could only create them out of thin air within 10 yards of themself, as an example.

Perhaps that could be treated like the 1/2D statistic, as a secondary sort of range which could be lesser or equal?

Does anyone know what happens if your hands are the max distance from you and then you suffer knockback away from them, increasing the distance between you BEYOND the max?

Not sure if that means they would instantly vanish, or just freeze and not be able to manipulate what they're doing before you get close again...

Your first point is essentially covered by Varyon's suggestion of taking Short-Ranged 2—it bypasses the need for Melee Attack, which I definitely agree was odd.

As for how the Telekinesis range actually covers two things, I agree, and I hadn't ever really thought about that myself. I'd go the other way, though, and say that they're the same range that can be split into two if you want to enhance/limit one (for half-off?).

I'd assume there's a third and fourth option for TK hands out of range: 3) they move with you, and 4) they are pulled by the range limit (e.g., if your range is 10 yards, your TK is 9 yards away, and you get knocked back 2 yards, then your TK gets pulled back 1 yard for it to still be within range, though it is now 10 yards from you, not 9). While I didn't intend to think about this, it's actually a pretty darn good question.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Raekai

Excellent! This seems like a better way of going about it—simply changing how the range works instead of removing range then re-adding range. I'll go with this as my solution. Thanks!

Happy to be of assistance.

Originally Posted by Raekai

I'd assume there's a third and fourth option for TK hands out of range: 3) they move with you, and 4) they are pulled by the range limit (e.g., if your range is 10 yards, your TK is 9 yards away, and you get knocked back 2 yards, then your TK gets pulled back 1 yard for it to still be within range, though it is now 10 yards from you, not 9). While I didn't intend to think about this, it's actually a pretty darn good question.

I didn't think of it in my previous response but... is there a Newtonian modifier for TK? That is, where pushing on something pushes you back with the same force, or pulling on something pulls you forward with the same force, like Steelpushing and Ironpulling in Mistborn. A side effect of that would be automatically linking the masses together of you and whatever you grab.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

Given that the pricing of Melee is probably assuming the 100 yard default range of Innate Attack / Binding / Affliction, I don't really think it should be worth as many points for an ability that starts at a mere 10 yards. You really ought to take x10 range first to get it to that base 100 before taking melee...

Given that TK is already ranged to begin with, taking melee and then ranged again is pretty overcomplicated. I think that if you want to take Increased Range, LOS (which like melee, I think assumes a 100 yard baseline) that you should just increase 10 yards to 100 yards first and then take it as usual.

I could see justification to require a ranged ability have Range 10/100 before applying the Melee modification. For abilities that lack 1/2D vs Max, simply adjust it to Range 10, then apply the x10 range modifier at half price, as normal for only modifying Max. As for Increased Range, LOS, note that it comes with a handy chart so you can simply look up the normal range for the ability to see what LOS is worth - for TK, with a normal 10 yard range, this is +70%.

Originally Posted by Plane

I could actually see treating these as separate ranges, maybe requiring separate enhancements? It could be interesting to have someone who could send their TK hands up to 1000 yards away, but who could only create them out of thin air within 10 yards of themself, as an example.

Perhaps that could be treated like the 1/2D statistic, as a secondary sort of range which could be lesser or equal?

Depending on exactly what this means, this could be something like Short-Ranged as a Limitation on the Increased Range Enhancement, or Takes Extra Time on the same. The former would mean you take range penalties for actions outside of your "spawn radius," the latter would mean it takes time for the invisible hand to go from 10 yards out to however far you fling it.

Originally Posted by Plane

Does anyone know what happens if your hands are the max distance from you and then you suffer knockback away from them, increasing the distance between you BEYOND the max?

I'd say the "hands" cease to exist, meaning pushing someone far enough away from whatever they've TK grabbed is effective at freeing the grabee. If you'd prefer they simply maintain their grip, but the TK'er can't make use of them until back in range, I'd call "maintain only" a -80% or so Limitation (honestly, it should be more, as I've previously worked out -70% may be appropriate for only being able to apply Lifting ST, but -80%'s the strongest a Limitation can get...), and you can apply this to the Increased Range Enhancement. A character who can grab within 10 yards with ST 10, and anything so grabbed keeps the invisible hands on them out to the character's line of sight, this would be TK 10 (Increased Range, LOS (Maintain Only -80%) +14%) [57]. I could see "Maintain Distance" as a legitimate modifier of TK, where if you or those grabbed by your TK are moved by something other than your TK, everything moves. It's probably a +0% modifier - it's good that you don't lose your grip on an enemy, but bad that someone can move you around by moving something you've grabbed. I'd probably treat all masses as linked (so once you grab something, anything pushing you has to deal with both your mass and that of what you've grabbed); I could see other ways, but they lend themselves to abuse.