Ultra-Tech and Magic

[AlexanderHowl]

Magic is generally governed by forces undetectable by science, unless you are using technomagic, so I would say no. Now, if you want technomagic nanotechnology, which is perfectly valid since most people's interpretations of nanotech are magical anyway because they violate thermodynamics, go ahead. If you are not using technomagic though, you may want to do a Shadowrun and mostly keep technology and magic mutually exclusive.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Magic is generally governed by forces undetectable by science, unless you are using technomagic, so I would say no. Now, if you want technomagic nanotechnology, which is perfectly valid since most people's interpretations of nanotech are magical anyway because they violate thermodynamics, go ahead. If you are not using technomagic though, you may want to do a Shadowrun and mostly keep technology and magic mutually exclusive.

This is based on an incorrect view of what science is. Science a methodology: Observe, Hypothesize, Predict, Test Predictions, Reproduce.

Science, especially TL7+ Science, has models of things that are "undetectable" be they the 10-dimensions, 11-dimensions, or 26-dimensions of the current universe models or any object that falls past the event horizon of a black hole. Heck the idea a "naked" singularity (on object with no height, length, or width or event horizon) is pretty wild.

Also I never liked the idea of technology and magic being mutually exclusive because the moment you started to really think about it you realized it made no blasted sense. More over if its wiki is correct Shadowrun is not so much magic and technology being in opposition but that Essence is connected to a wizard's lifeforce which is damaged by technological upgrades.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Also I never liked the idea of technology and magic being mutually exclusive because the moment you started to really think about it you realized it made no blasted sense. .

I've done a write up for a setting where advanced mechanistic technology and high magic are in opposition. If the mana levels are too high they generate electromagnetic interference and make tightly machined moving parts jam up because of tiny distortions in the metal. Of course since living creatures are relatively resistant due to greater flexibility and ability to shape mana, society turns to more biotechnology.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I've done a write up for a setting where advanced mechanistic technology and high magic are in opposition. If the mana levels are too high they generate electromagnetic interference and make tightly machined moving parts jam up because of tiny distortions in the metal. Of course since living creatures are relatively resistant due to greater flexibility and ability to shape mana, society turns to more biotechnology.

Seems like it could do terrible things to skeletal or exoskeletal joints too.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Seems like it could do terrible things to skeletal or exoskeletal joints too.

Not really. Tendons are stretchy so a slight and temporary distortion doesn't make much of a difference and living creatures get resistance rolls. Machines don't.

However what it does do terrible things to is reproductive cells. Basically you need a spell if you don't want a substantial proportion of your offspring to miscarry or be mutants. They'd also have a higher risk of cancer.

[Whitewings]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Not really. Tendons are stretchy so a slight and temporary distortion doesn't make much of a difference and living creatures get resistance rolls. Machines don't.

However what it does do terrible things to is reproductive cells. Basically you need a spell if you don't want a substantial proportion of your offspring to miscarry or be mutants. They'd also have a higher risk of cancer.

That doesn't actually make sense; very few organic compounds are magnetic to any significant degree, and DNA replication mechanisms are not on the list. You explicitly state that high mana levels generate EM interference.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

That doesn't actually make sense; very few organic compounds are magnetic to any significant degree, and DNA replication mechanisms are not on the list. You explicitly state that high mana levels generate EM interference.

The tiny distortions in metal have nothing to do with EM apart from the root cause. They're just tiny random shape metal effects.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

I doubt it would be used often, given how expensive Instaskill is, but the setting effects are what interest me most, both positive and negative. Remember that in this setting, magic is an extremely new field: less than 70 years since the first successful casting of a spell. So the idea of "that's not how it's done!" is probably not yet a part of local culture. In this setting, mana is called ki, spells are ki techniques, mages are ki sensitives, and mages who know Shapeshifting are known as ki adepts. Shapeshifting is one of the most advanced spells known, and a mark of mastery. Healer, fire master, communications expert, any second rank ki sensitive with six techniques down will almost certainly learn Shapeshifting.

...Did you tell us you were talking about a specific setting at some point?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Not really. Tendons are stretchy so a slight and temporary distortion doesn't make much of a difference and living creatures get resistance rolls. Machines don't.

I said skeletons, specifically. Connective tissue can indeed forgive some distortion. Load-bearing bone-bone joints, on the other hand, can get downright miserable if you mess up the facing surfaces.

Of course, the addition that the distortion is temporary helps considerably, but it could also help considerably for machinery.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

However what it does do terrible things to is reproductive cells. Basically you need a spell if you don't want a substantial proportion of your offspring to miscarry or be mutants. They'd also have a higher risk of cancer.

I wondered if you'd go there. It doesn't necessarily follow, and might actually have messier implications than you realize, in a couple different respects.

Both DNA and protein could reasonably not be damaged by either tiny mechanical distortions or EM effects. Unless the distortions outright break the covalent backbone, DNA will be completely unfazed. Protein might occasionally denature, but when it does it will often be reversible in vivo. If you do break molecules, proteins will usually be ruined if hit, and some might form problematic denatured forms. You might get protein plaque associated problems. DNA will usually be repaired successfully unless there's a lot of damage happening at once.

And if you do do heavy molecular damage that's a lot more than a reproductive threat. Like radiation poisoning, it'll hit fast-dividing tissues all over, notably bone marrow...

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...Did you tell us you were talking about a specific setting at some point?

I said skeletons, specifically. Connective tissue can indeed forgive some distortion. Load-bearing bone-bone joints, on the other hand, can get downright miserable if you mess up the facing surfaces.

Of course, the addition that the distortion is temporary helps considerably, but it could also help considerably for machinery..

If the machinery isn't operating then no problem. If it distorts while in motion and the tolerances are tight it can really damage itself and at the least jam. In short, increased Malf numbers. The higher the tech, the bigger the increase.

[clu2415]

There’s two important questions here: A) is it rules legal? (Seems like the consensus is yes) and B) do you want it to work that way in your game? Sometimes a rules interaction can have interesting in-setting effects and it can be fun to think about a society that develops around that bit of weirdness. Other times, that’s not conducive to the story you want to tell. If that’s so, come up with a justification for why it doesn’t work, or just flat-out say that it’s too powerful and not going to work at your table.