Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

MikMod · 05-27-2019, 05:08 AM

Skarg - can I ask how you would interpret/run these two weapons situations:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)?

Much appreciated if you have time to look at this. TY.

I also seem to remember we used to run a Parry option as an alternative to Defend, where you could choose to stop an extra 2 points of damage instead of forcing them to roll an extra die. I cannot find this in the RAW so I guess this was based on the assumption from Two Weapons Talent that parrying stops 2 hits.

Aside: I notice the DX requirement for this talent has dropped from 13 to 11... Actually this area has changed slightly from the original rules (Left Hand Weapons), which might explain why I am a bit confused

larsdangly · 05-27-2019, 09:44 AM

Some quick answers. All based on RAW from legacy edition materials, after a search for anything on spike shield, main-gauche and left handed weapons; my answers in ALL CAPS

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod

Skarg - can I ask how you would interpret/run these two weapons situations:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack? NO SECOND ATTACK; THE SPIKE SHIELD DOES DAMAGE ONLY ON A SUCCESSFUL SHIELD RUSH, WHICH CANNOT BE ACCOMPANIED BY ANOTHER ATTACK
(b) Any DX- on their first attack? EITHER SHIELD RUSH OR DO SWORD ATTACK, EITHER AT DX 12
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield? YOU DO NOT 'PARRY' WITH YOUR SHIELD; IF YOU HAVE IT IT ALWAYS REDUCES DAMAGE FROM ATTACKS THROUGH YOUR FRONT HEX SIDE
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? THIS ISN'T A THING IF YOU LACK TWO WEAPONS TALENT. YOU CAN EITHER DEFEND (4D TO HIT YOU AND -1 DAMAGE FROM YOUR SPIKE SHIELD) OR FIGHT NORMALLY (3D TO HIT YOU AND -1 DAMAGE FROM SPIKE SHIELD).

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack? -4 IF IT IS A PROPER MAIN-GAUCHE; -6 IF ANY OTHER WEAPON, IN PRINCIPLE INCLUDING A NORMAL DAGGER
(b) Any DX- on their first attack? NONE IF IT IS A PROPER MAIN-GAUCHE; -6 IF ANY OTHER WEAPON, IN PRINCIPLE INCLUDING A NORMAL DAGGER
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger? THERE IS NO 'IF YOU PARRY'; IF IT IS A PROPER MAIN-GAUCHE, YOU GET -1 PROTECTION VS. 1 HANDED MELEE WEAPONS ATTACKING THROUGH YOUR FRONT HEX SIDES (ONLY); IF IT IS A NORMAL DAGGER YOU GET NOTHING. IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT DEFENSIVELY, PICK DEFEND OPTION (4D TO HIT YOU; NO PROTECTION)
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? NOT AN OPTION; YOU CAN DEFEND (4D TO HIT YOU, NO PROTECTION)
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)? THERE ARE PLACES IN THE TEXT WHERE A MAIN-GAUCHE IS DESCRIBED PARENTHETICALLY AS A LEFT HANDED DAGGER, PRESUMABLY TO HELP PEOPLE WHO DON'T RECOGNIZE THE WORD. BUT THEY ARE FUNCTIONALLY DIFFERENT THINGS IN THE RULES: DIFFERENT WEIGHT AND COST, AND QUITE DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS IN COMBAT, OFFENSIVELY AND DEFENSIVELY. THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU NEED TO SPECIFY YOU ARE USING A MAIN-GAUCHE IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT WITH AN OFF HANDED DAGGER, OTHERWISE YOU WON'T GET MUCH OUT OF IT.

Much appreciated if you have time to look at this. TY.

I also seem to remember we used to run a Parry option as an alternative to Defend, where you could choose to stop an extra 2 points of damage instead of forcing them to roll an extra die. I cannot find this in the RAW so I guess this was based on the assumption from Two Weapons Talent that parrying stops 2 hits. THIS ISN'T A THING. I'VE USED HOUSE RULES LIKE THIS BEFORE, BUT IT IS NOT PART OF RAW, EITHER NOW OR IN THE ORIGINAL EDITIONS

Aside: I notice the DX requirement for this talent has dropped from 13 to 11... Actually this area has changed slightly from the original rules (Left Hand Weapons), which might explain why I am a bit confused

Skarg · 05-27-2019, 12:13 PM

I think the rules are spread between three (or more?) places and are not entirely consistent with each other.

The Two Weapons talent (on ITL 41) is the most liberal in suggesting anyone can fight with two weapons if they have not only a main gauche but also they could use an ordinary dagger in the left hand, or a spike shield. However it is also more restrictive than Left-Hand Weapons on ITL 111 in saying that a figure who wants to fight with two full weapons "must have this talent".

ITL 107 is the most restrictive, saying humanoid figures without Two Weapons can only make one attack. But I think it can be considered overruled by more specific rules.

The Left-Hand Weapons rule on ITL 111 I take to be more specific and therefore expands on/overrules ITL 107, but it only mentions main gauche and the Two Weapons talent, and adds that anyone can try to fight as in the Two Weapons talent but at -6 on each attack.

If I were only using the RAW Legacy Edition rules, I would say that the Two Weapons description is the most specific and detailed and overrides all the other rules except the part of ITL 111 which specifically elaborates on Two Weapons saying you actually can try to use two weapons but at -6 on each.

So to Legacy-RAW answer your questions:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?

Answers:
(a)(b) They don't get a second attack. SJ left that in Legacy Edition by mistake.
(c)(d) 1 damage stopped as usual for a Spike Shield. They can Defend with it if they want for enemy 4/DX to hit.

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)?

(a)(b) GM discretion. I would either say there is no 2nd attack, or they can attack as with a main-gauche attack (-0 for the first attack, -4 with the second attack).
(c)(d) None. Only an actual main-gauche or Two Weapons talent stops damage.
(e) No, since the 1980 Advanced rules, a main gauche has always cost twice as much and weighed more than a dagger.

However, what I would tend to do is also consult the original 1980 Advanced rules to get more info on what Steve changed in the Legacy Edition, because doing so gives me options and also shows what the Two Weapons bit about Spike Shields is talking about.

That is, if you look at the original ITL or Advanced Melee weapon tables, you will find that the notes on Spike Shield read "If used as 2nd weapon, does 1 - 2 damage. DX -4." Aha! Now, since that note changed in Legacy Edition to "If used in shield rush, does 1d-2 damage." it seems to me that Steve probably was trying to edit out the ability to get a second attack from a spike shield (probably for simplicity), but missed the reference inside the Two Weapons talent description.

Also looking at Advanced Melee for how main gauche and a dagger in the left hand work, the situation is also quite different, and also Steve was trying to simplify it for Legacy Edition. In Advanced Melee, a figure attacking with a sword and a main gauche has -4 DX on both attacks.

And in Advanced Melee, you can use two daggers in HTH, at -4 each.

However I don't see an elaboration on using a weapon and ordinary dagger in Advanced Melee - Two Weapons has the same language saying it's possible, but not what the mechanics are. The original weapon table does mention a section titled Combat with Daggers, but I think that's the section in AM with the HTH damage table, which I infer got renamed to "Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club", which only talks about HTH damage.

As for your specific questions in the light of Advanced Melee, I would tend to allow both spike shields and normal daggers to do a second attack (normal daggers just don't stop any damage), but I would choose to play it as in Advanced Melee, where doing so puts both attacks at -4 DX.

How I would actually play would be to re-hash my favorite of the original and new rules, and/or invent how I want to play.

larsdangly · 05-27-2019, 12:41 PM

Responses in ALL CAPS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

I think the rules are spread between three (or more?) places and are not entirely consistent with each other.DEFINITELY CONFUSING BUT ONLY INCONSISTENT ON A COUPLE OF POINTS

The Two Weapons talent (on ITL 41) is the most liberal in suggesting anyone can fight with two weapons if they have not only a main gauche but also they could use an ordinary dagger in the left hand, or a spike shield. However it is also more restrictive than Left-Hand Weapons on ITL 111 in saying that a figure who wants to fight with two full weapons "must have this talent". THE ONLY SPECIFIC RULE EXPLAINING HOW A SPIKE SHIELD CAN BE USED TO DELIVER DAMAGE GIVES IT AS AN ADD-ON TO A SHIELD RUSH ATTACK, WHICH CLEARLY DOESN'T PERMIT OTHER ACCOMPANYING ATTACKS. SO, THIS SHOULD NOT BE THOUGHT OF AS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AN OFF HANDED SECOND ATTACK. MAIN-GAUCHE RULES ARE CLEAR. LEFT HANDED DAGGER IS TOTALLY UNCLEAR; IN SOME PLACES GIVEN AS A SYNONYMOUS DESCRIPTION OF MAIN-GAUCHE, IN OTHERS (LIKE HERE) SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM MAIN-GAUCHE. THE LEFT HANDED RULES CLEARLY STATE THAT YOU CAN FIGHT WITH TWO THINGS AT -6 FOR EACH WITHOUT TW TALENT. MY TAKE AWAY IS THAT THE PREAMBLE PARAGRAPH OF THE TW TALENT (THE PART BEFORE THE BULLET POINT RULES) IS A LOT OF NONSENSE THAT SHOULD BE IGNORED. IT IS INCONSISTENT WITH CLEARLY STATED RULES ELSEWHERE.

ITL 107 is the most restrictive, saying humanoid figures without Two Weapons can only make one attack. But I think it can be considered overruled by more specific rules. AGREED; THERE ARE SO MANY SPECIFIC INSTANCES WHERE TWO ATTACKS CAN BE DELIVERED, INCLUDING MAIN-GAUCHE, THE -6/-6 GENERAL OPTION, AND SEVERAL UNUSUAL WEAPONS. PLUS BOWS AT HIGH DX, OF COURSE.

The Left-Hand Weapons rule on ITL 111 I take to be more specific and therefore expands on/overrules ITL 107, but it only mentions main gauche and the Two Weapons talent, and adds that anyone can try to fight as in the Two Weapons talent but at -6 on each attack. AGREED, AND I ALSO TAKE THIS AS THE 'BASE' STATEMENT OF THE RULES

If I were only using the RAW Legacy Edition rules, I would say that the Two Weapons description is the most specific and detailed and overrides all the other rules except the part of ITL 111 which specifically elaborates on Two Weapons saying you actually can try to use two weapons but at -6 on each. I SUPPOSE, BUT THE TW TALENT INTRO PARAGRAPH CALLS OUT A LEFT HANDED DAGGER AS SOMETHING SPECIAL, BUT IT ISN'T DESCRIBED ANYWHERE ELSE (OTHER THAN WHEN USED AS A SYNONYM FOR A MAIN-GAUCHE), AND THE RESTRICTION HERE IS INCONSISTENT WITH ITL 111.

So to Legacy-RAW answer your questions:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?

Answers:
(a)(b) They don't get a second attack. SJ left that in Legacy Edition by mistake.
(c)(d) 1 damage stopped as usual for a Spike Shield. They can Defend with it if they want for enemy 4/DX to hit.

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)?

(a)(b) GM discretion. I would either say there is no 2nd attack, or they can attack as with a main-gauche attack (-0 for the first attack, -4 with the second attack).
(c)(d) None. Only an actual main-gauche or Two Weapons talent stops damage.
(e) No, since the 1980 Advanced rules, a main gauche has always cost twice as much and weighed more than a dagger.

However, what I would tend to do is also consult the original 1980 Advanced rules to get more info on what Steve changed in the Legacy Edition, because doing so gives me options and also shows what the Two Weapons bit about Spike Shields is talking about.

That is, if you look at the original ITL or Advanced Melee weapon tables, you will find that the notes on Spike Shield read "If used as 2nd weapon, does 1 - 2 damage. DX -4." Aha! Now, since that note changed in Legacy Edition to "If used in shield rush, does 1d-2 damage." it seems to me that Steve probably was trying to edit out the ability to get a second attack from a spike shield (probably for simplicity), but missed the reference inside the Two Weapons talent description.
THAT'S A REASONABLE READING. IN THE ORIGINAL EDITION, THE SPIKE SHIELD WAS SORT OF LIKE A LOWER DAMAGE MAIN-GAUCHE THAT WORKS MORE GENERALLY AS A SHIELD. IN THE LEGACY EDITION, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY; IT IS JUST A SHIELD THAT DOES DAMAGE ON A SHIELD RUSH

Also looking at Advanced Melee for how main gauche and a dagger in the left hand work, the situation is also quite different, and also Steve was trying to simplify it for Legacy Edition. In Advanced Melee, a figure attacking with a sword and a main gauche has -4 DX on both attacks.
AGREED; IT IS ONE OF THE MORE FRUSTRATING BITS OF RULES AMBIGUITY THAT THE NEW EDITION SAYS NOTHING CONCRETE ABOUT A DX PENALTY FOR THE PRIMARY ATTACK WHEN YOU MAKE THIS SECONDARY ATTACK, WITH THE SIMPLEST READING BEING THAT THERE ISN'T ONE. BUT THE OLD EDITION INCLUDED ONE. WE ARE NOT GETTING RESPONSES FROM SJG ABOUT THESE DETAILS, SO I THINK PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE THEIR OWN RULINGS.

And in Advanced Melee, you can use two daggers in HTH, at -4 each.
THAT'S RIGHT; I'M NOT SURE WHY THAT OPTION WAS REMOVED, BUT IT DOESN'T BUG ME. IN GENERAL, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING IS TOO LIBERALLY SPRINKLED THROUGH ROLEPLAYING GAMES - IT IS SOMETHING THAT OCCURS IN RELEVANT HISTORICAL MARTIAL ARTS, BUT IS THE EXCEPTION RATHER THAN THE RULE.

However I don't see an elaboration on using a weapon and ordinary dagger in Advanced Melee - Two Weapons has the same language saying it's possible, but not what the mechanics are. The original weapon table does mention a section titled Combat with Daggers, but I think that's the section in AM with the HTH damage table, which I infer got renamed to "Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club", which only talks about HTH damage.

As for your specific questions in the light of Advanced Melee, I would tend to allow both spike shields and normal daggers to do a second attack (normal daggers just don't stop any damage), but I would choose to play it as in Advanced Melee, where doing so puts both attacks at -4 DX.

THAT'S ALL REASONABLE, BUT I WOULD SAY DEPARTS ENOUGH FROM SPECIFIC RULES IN LEGACY EDITION THAT IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED 'HOUSE RULES' RATHER THAN 'STANDARD RULES RULINGS'

How I would actually play would be to re-hash my favorite of the original and new rules, and/or invent how I want to play.

Skarg · 05-27-2019, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly

IN GENERAL, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING IS TOO LIBERALLY SPRINKLED THROUGH ROLEPLAYING GAMES - IT IS SOMETHING THAT OCCURS IN RELEVANT HISTORICAL MARTIAL ARTS, BUT IS THE EXCEPTION RATHER THAN THE RULE.

Yeah, that's my feeling on two weapons use as well. i.e. I think it should be an unusual specialized option that calls for special training and has some drawbacks and not something that's better than (or even, just as good or easy as) conventional ways to use weapons.

larsdangly · 05-27-2019, 02:58 PM

This is one reason why I tend to follow a relatively strict reading of the RAW, Specifically, these are the only options I recognize for making two melee attacks in a turn:

1) Us a Main-gauche, following the clearly laid out rules
2) Use any two 1-H weapons, but with -6/-6 penalties
3) Learn the Two Weapons (or equivalently Fencing) talent and follow the options in the bulleted part of that talent description (ignoring generalized statements in the paragraph at the top)
4) Learn an Unusual Weapon talent that involves paired weapons (e.g., net and trident), and follow the specific rules for that set.

By this reading, there is nothing special about daggers that aren't also main-gauches, and nothing special about spike shields (other than the damage they do on a shield rush).

MikMod · 05-27-2019, 06:39 PM

Okay - so a RAW compatible combat options without TW would be:

Sword and Spike Shield + sword and shield talent

Attack with Sword at normal DX, get 1 point of protection from front attacks and missiles
Shield Rush at normal DX for possible 1-2 damage and a knockdown, still get 1 point of protection from front attacks and missiles

Sword and Main Gauche + only sword talent

Attack with Sword at DX -1, get 1 point of protection from front attacks with 1 handed weapons only and get a second 'dagger' attack of (1-1) against the same target as the sword attack at DX -5 (one DX is lost throughout by using the Main Gauche)

Sword and Dagger + only sword talent

Attack with Sword at normal DX, get no protection at all, get second dagger attack at same target at DX -4 for (1-1)

2 Swords + only sword talent

One attack at normal DX while the other sword dangles around
Two attacks both at DX -6 but can be different targets, no defensive options at all

These all seem like balanced options to me.

Thank you so much guys for all your thoughts and knowledge! You're awesome :)

05-27-2019, 05:08 AM	#1
MikMod Join Date: May 2019	Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield? Skarg - can I ask how you would interpret/run these two weapons situations: Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons (a) What DX- on their second attack? (b) Any DX- on their first attack? (c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield? (d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons (a) What DX- on their second attack? (b) Any DX- on their first attack? (c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger? (d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? (e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)? Much appreciated if you have time to look at this. TY. I also seem to remember we used to run a Parry option as an alternative to Defend, where you could choose to stop an extra 2 points of damage instead of forcing them to roll an extra die. I cannot find this in the RAW so I guess this was based on the assumption from Two Weapons Talent that parrying stops 2 hits. Aside: I notice the DX requirement for this talent has dropped from 13 to 11... Actually this area has changed slightly from the original rules (Left Hand Weapons), which might explain why I am a bit confused Last edited by MikMod; 05-27-2019 at 05:45 AM. Reason: to make talents clearer, compare to original rules

05-27-2019, 12:13 PM	#3
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield? I think the rules are spread between three (or more?) places and are not entirely consistent with each other. The Two Weapons talent (on ITL 41) is the most liberal in suggesting anyone can fight with two weapons if they have not only a main gauche but also they could use an ordinary dagger in the left hand, or a spike shield. However it is also more restrictive than Left-Hand Weapons on ITL 111 in saying that a figure who wants to fight with two full weapons "must have this talent". ITL 107 is the most restrictive, saying humanoid figures without Two Weapons can only make one attack. But I think it can be considered overruled by more specific rules. The Left-Hand Weapons rule on ITL 111 I take to be more specific and therefore expands on/overrules ITL 107, but it only mentions main gauche and the Two Weapons talent, and adds that anyone can try to fight as in the Two Weapons talent but at -6 on each attack. If I were only using the RAW Legacy Edition rules, I would say that the Two Weapons description is the most specific and detailed and overrides all the other rules except the part of ITL 111 which specifically elaborates on Two Weapons saying you actually can try to use two weapons but at -6 on each. So to Legacy-RAW answer your questions: Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons (a) What DX- on their second attack? (b) Any DX- on their first attack? (c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield? (d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? Answers: (a)(b) They don't get a second attack. SJ left that in Legacy Edition by mistake. (c)(d) 1 damage stopped as usual for a Spike Shield. They can Defend with it if they want for enemy 4/DX to hit. Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons (a) What DX- on their second attack? (b) Any DX- on their first attack? (c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger? (d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? (e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)? (a)(b) GM discretion. I would either say there is no 2nd attack, or they can attack as with a main-gauche attack (-0 for the first attack, -4 with the second attack). (c)(d) None. Only an actual main-gauche or Two Weapons talent stops damage. (e) No, since the 1980 Advanced rules, a main gauche has always cost twice as much and weighed more than a dagger. However, what I would tend to do is also consult the original 1980 Advanced rules to get more info on what Steve changed in the Legacy Edition, because doing so gives me options and also shows what the Two Weapons bit about Spike Shields is talking about. That is, if you look at the original ITL or Advanced Melee weapon tables, you will find that the notes on Spike Shield read "If used as 2nd weapon, does 1 - 2 damage. DX -4." Aha! Now, since that note changed in Legacy Edition to "If used in shield rush, does 1d-2 damage." it seems to me that Steve probably was trying to edit out the ability to get a second attack from a spike shield (probably for simplicity), but missed the reference inside the Two Weapons talent description. Also looking at Advanced Melee for how main gauche and a dagger in the left hand work, the situation is also quite different, and also Steve was trying to simplify it for Legacy Edition. In Advanced Melee, a figure attacking with a sword and a main gauche has -4 DX on both attacks. And in Advanced Melee, you can use two daggers in HTH, at -4 each. However I don't see an elaboration on using a weapon and ordinary dagger in Advanced Melee - Two Weapons has the same language saying it's possible, but not what the mechanics are. The original weapon table does mention a section titled Combat with Daggers, but I think that's the section in AM with the HTH damage table, which I infer got renamed to "Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club", which only talks about HTH damage. As for your specific questions in the light of Advanced Melee, I would tend to allow both spike shields and normal daggers to do a second attack (normal daggers just don't stop any damage), but I would choose to play it as in Advanced Melee, where doing so puts both attacks at -4 DX. How I would actually play would be to re-hash my favorite of the original and new rules, and/or invent how I want to play.

05-27-2019, 02:58 PM	#6
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield? This is one reason why I tend to follow a relatively strict reading of the RAW, Specifically, these are the only options I recognize for making two melee attacks in a turn: 1) Us a Main-gauche, following the clearly laid out rules 2) Use any two 1-H weapons, but with -6/-6 penalties 3) Learn the Two Weapons (or equivalently Fencing) talent and follow the options in the bulleted part of that talent description (ignoring generalized statements in the paragraph at the top) 4) Learn an Unusual Weapon talent that involves paired weapons (e.g., net and trident), and follow the specific rules for that set. By this reading, there is nothing special about daggers that aren't also main-gauches, and nothing special about spike shields (other than the damage they do on a shield rush).

05-27-2019, 06:39 PM	#7
MikMod Join Date: May 2019	Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield? Okay - so a RAW compatible combat options without TW would be: Sword and Spike Shield + sword and shield talent Attack with Sword at normal DX, get 1 point of protection from front attacks and missiles Shield Rush at normal DX for possible 1-2 damage and a knockdown, still get 1 point of protection from front attacks and missiles Sword and Main Gauche + only sword talent Attack with Sword at DX -1, get 1 point of protection from front attacks with 1 handed weapons only and get a second 'dagger' attack of (1-1) against the same target as the sword attack at DX -5 (one DX is lost throughout by using the Main Gauche) Sword and Dagger + only sword talent Attack with Sword at normal DX, get no protection at all, get second dagger attack at same target at DX -4 for (1-1) 2 Swords + only sword talent One attack at normal DX while the other sword dangles around Two attacks both at DX -6 but can be different targets, no defensive options at all These all seem like balanced options to me. Thank you so much guys for all your thoughts and knowledge! You're awesome :)