When Can a Character Disengage?

[oldwolf]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Yes, and that word "move" means "act" (as in "your move, Bob" - that is, when you actually choose what to do and do it, during the Action phase), not that you are supposed to remember the engagement state at the time the figure got to move during the Movement phase.

It is a tragic typo, which gets repeated in the new ITL, because it causes a lot of confusion.

If you play it literally as meaning you're supposed to remember whether you were engaged at the start of your movement, and have that determine what you can do when it's your time to act, it will create all sorts of silly unintended effects, undermine logical cause and effect, etc.

Based on what you are saying:

It seems to me that almost all the confusion could be eliminated if the following three sentences and their equivalents throughout the rules:

A figure which is not engaged with an enemy when its turn comes to move may perform any one of the following options:

A figure which is engaged with an enemy when its turn comes to move may perform any one of the following options:

A figure may execute one option each turn, may not mix actions from different options, and may have different options depending on whether it is engaged, disengaged, or in HTH when its turn to move comes. During a turn, a player may change his mind about a figure’s option, if that figure has not yet acted, and that figure did not move too far to allow taking the new option.

Were changed to read:

A figure which is not engaged with an enemy when its turn comes may perform any one of the following options:

A figure which is engaged with an enemy when its turn comes may perform any one of the following options:

A figure may execute one option each turn, may not mix actions from different options, and may have different options depending on whether it is engaged, disengaged, or in HTH when its turn comes. During a turn, a player may change his mind about a figure’s option, if that figure has not yet acted, and that figure did not move too far to allow taking the new option.

The problem arises from the fact that during a turn, each player has their turn come up twice. Once to have a chance to move and later to have a chance perform an action. The words "to move" in these three sentences put unwarranted weight on decisions made when a player takes their movement turn.

A simple official addendum making this change would probably be a good idea.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades

I agree with all of this, but the detailed description of Disengage seems to suggest this is a special case where 'how far you moved' isn't relevant, only allowing for shifts (therefore requiring you to be engaged) or standing still. I think the rules might be trying to clarify that disengage is a separate, 1 hex move during the action phase, not putting a clear limit on the allowed movement in the movement phase.

Skarg, do you play a maximum of 1 hex move (but it does not need to be a shift) to allow a disengage action?

Yes, the requirement for Disengagement is only that you are currently in the Front hex of a foe, and that during Movement you moved either 0 or 1 hexes (shift or not doesn't matter).

Again, this was explicit in the old rules: "CHANGING OPTIONS It is legal to change options AFTER the movement part of a turn, to meet changing conditions. The only requirement is that the figure must not have already moved more than the NEW options allows. If you moved 0 or 1 hex, you may switch to any option..."


I think the detailed description of Disengage (in Legacy ITL, on page 106) mentions Shift to help players understand the typical situation where a figure starts a turn Engaged, so during Movement it can only shift 0 or 1 hex, and then if it is still Engaged, it could Disengage. I do not think that this means that a figure who was not Engaged and moved 1, then got Engaged, can't then Disengage merely because it's 1-hex move is not termed a Shift because it wasn't Engaged at the start of its Movement phase.

(I think that's the unfortunate type of confusion created by trying to use the Options list as a system for constraining options across both the Movement Phase and the Action phase, which I am sure is not Steve's intent, because original Wizard and Advanced Melee spelled out that that was not the case, and I can't imagine Steve intentionally trying to add weird literal requirements.)

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by oldwolf

The problem arises from the fact that during a turn, each player has their turn come up twice. Once to have a chance to move and later to have a chance perform an action. The words "to move" in these three sentences put unwarranted weight on decisions made when a player takes their movement turn.

Yes, quite.

The combination of using the word "move" when they mean "act", and giving a naive option list that acts like the two are linked more strongly than they are (since figures really mainly choose what to do and act when their adjDX comes up - in practice, we and the example combat texts almost never declare our actions before it's our turn to act, unless we are Dodging an earlier attack or something) causes all sorts of confusion.

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by Skarg

No, you don't, because Disengaging, like other actions, is something you choose to do and then immediately do when your adjDX comes up during the Action phase. You do it instead of attacking or whatever.

Just to clarify, when I referred to the disengaged options in my post, I meant options (a) through (i), the ones for disengaged figures. I did not mean that the figure would take option (n) Disengage.

My point was merely that if your figure took option (a) Move for example and moved a significant amount, you of course would have to remember that he could not attack when the later combat phase occurred. The point was that some things already affect later things.

This of itself isn't meant to refute your other points.

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I do not think that this means that a figure who was not Engaged and moved 1, then got Engaged, can't then Disengage merely because it's 1-hex move is not termed a Shift because it wasn't Engaged at the start of its Movement phase.

This scenario is unsettling to me.

Let's assume the figure in question chose option (b) Charge Attack. How can it switch to an option for engaged figures such as (n) Disengage if the option (b) was already relied upon to get it into the engagement?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Tom H.

This scenario is unsettling to me.

Let's assume the figure in question chose option (b) Charge Attack. How can it switch to an option for engaged figures such as (n) Disengage if the option (b) was already relied upon to get it into the engagement?

Because you have been led astray by relating too rigidly to the table of Options, which in an effort to help new players get the general idea, conflates movement and options assuming simple situations where Engagement status won't change between a figure's movement and action due to enemy movement, falling figures, etc.

Most figures do not declare an option during the movement phase at all. The options are only relevant during the Movement phase for planning what you expect you will want to do later, but you don't have to say you're intending some action - only the distance you move and whether you are engaged when you act will affect what you can do.

The new rules do say this, they just do it in a simpler way that leaves more room for this sort of confusion than the original Wizard and Advanced Melee did:

Originally Posted by Legacy ITL, page 102

During a turn, a player may change his mind about a figure’s option, as long as
• that figure has not yet acted, and
• that figure did not move too far to allow it to take the new option.

There are no other conditions limiting changing your option, despite anything someone might infer from the Options list.

(Read all the combat examples and notice every figure on (nearly?) every turn just says what they do when their adjDX comes up, not before.)


In other words:

During Movement, you just move.

If you're engaged, you can move 0 or 1 hexes.

If you're not engaged, you may want to consider what you may want to do when the action gets to your adjDX period, but there's no reason to declare an option during movement except if you want to communicate your expected action to other players. The only thing you need to remember is how many movement points you used.

During Action, too, you don't need to declare an option before your adjDX comes up unless you want to Defend or Dodge against a foe with higher adjDX than you (or against a pole weapon in a charge).

Even if you declare an option before you act, until you act, you can change your option.

[Chris Rice]

Given the imminent Decks of Destiny KS I wonder what version of the options will be emphasised in the future. If the KS includes, as it apparently will, several sets of “option cards”, will players tend to just select a card and do only that in their turn without any changing of options as mentioned above. Will be interesting to see.

[oldwolf]

As near as I can see some place in the rules they should tell people:

When a turn starts, Pick an option you think will be good in the current circumstance. Tell No One! It is just your initial thought and may change as circumstances change! Move within the limits dictated by the option you are thinking of. When it is your time to act, look over the situation at that moment and choose any action not disallowed by the movement you made. Your action does not have to be the one you originally planned, after-all things may have changed, it just has to be one allowed by the movement you already made.

[larsdangly]

I think this is really not that complicated. While there are some ambiguities in the wording of the rules, two core concepts are clear: 1) you can perform any action when your turn in the action phase comes that is consistent the movement you made in the movement phase of that turn, as given by the list of options; and 2) a shift is a form of 1-hex movement. I think it is clear that you can perform the disengage action any time you moved 0 or 1 hexes in the movement phase.