(DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

How many character points do you think a PC needs to start a career in dungeon delving?

I'm a firm believer in nothing less than 250, but people do not see it my way.

Does the minimum depend on what class the PC is?

Not really, but Anthony is not remiss in noting that that at low point levels casters really get the shaft in GURPS, where at point levels to let them thrive, non-casters often get to 'unspecialized' (as in they can stop being Johnny One-Skill).

[SteamBub]

Henchmen has 62-point templates, so that is at least the minimum. I would say that is the best for a rags to riches game.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by SteamBub

Henchmen has 62-point templates, so that is at least the minimum. I would say that is the best for a rags to riches game.

I used that for a Warhammer game once, and it worked out great. So beyond low-level D&D (or DCC) dungeons, WFRP could server as a good inspiration for adventures below the usual DF starting point.

[Devil_Dante]

my PCs started with 150+ 30 of disadv..
To be honest, this depends a lot by you as GM and the experience of your players.

I'd prefer a slow improvement of their abilities, but i play a long term campaign. If you are just looking for dungeon crawling, could be different

[Bruno]

If your dungeon has regular rats, giant rats, modest numbers of unarmed/armored zombies, and a minimal number of deathtraps, I think the 50-62 point range would be fine.

If it has water elementals and puddings, you need more dangerous delvers.

[Gnome]

In my current campaign, we were going for that classic DnD weak start, fast progression model. The PCs started with 125-pt templates plus 5 points of "flavor" traits: language, culture, Area Knowledge, etc. They are now ~800 pts. (earning roughly 10 pts per session).

Survival was definitely a bigger challenge in the early parts of the campaign, due to HT scores in the 11-13 range and lack of Luck. Some PCs died, but everyone had fun trying to stay alive fighting goblins, skeletons, etc. The party had to be willing to run away sometimes. The first "adventure" involved clearing some unwelcome kobolds out of Old Man Withers' barn.

Now, my challenge as GM is making things still seem exciting. A battle with 3-5 death checks is kind of ho-hum and probably an easy fight, given that everyone has HT 16+ and Extraordinary Luck at a bare minimum. Running away is generally not an option, because by the time the fight is looking unwinnable, it's probably too late to make an effective run for it (some party members are unconscious, mind-controlled, reeling from their wounds, etc.).

Everything has become ridiculously over-the-top. Our two most recent stand-alone encounters: a well-defended castle, complete with flying defenders, steampunk turrets, magical traps, and ~150 men-at-arms of various skills levels, including casters; an army of 50 SM+4 giants. The party is currently visiting a spider-themed infernal realm. They are traversing a dungeon composed entirely of spider webbing, battling giant spiders, spider swarms, and spider demons, and about to encounter the demon lord of the realm, all while suffering a slew of horrendous situational modifiers (the worst of which is the lack of holy sanctity).

TLDR: the GM has to use different kinds of creativity at different levels, but basically any level is possible for DF.

[weby]

in my current campaign the PCs started at 100 points+30 points disads and that worked well enough for low level dungeon delvers. The seemed a lot like low level D&D characters in ability.

The current 4000 points does not really work that well for dungeon delving.. :)

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by SteamBub

Henchmen has 62-point templates, so that is at least the minimum. I would say that is the best for a rags to riches game.

That's true, they do. But only the Guard really looks like someone who could turn into a PC. And even the Guard looks a bit squishy to go into the dungeon without "higher level" help. I think 62 points might be too low for dungeon delving PCs.

The 125 points templates would certainly make great low-level PCs (as they are intended to be).

[Hide]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I'm a firm believer in nothing less than 250, but people do not see it my way.

I agree with this fact as well. IMO, 250 CP allow your players building characters good enough to start adventuring in most settings, without taxing their imagination (especially when confronting expectation versus reality).

Regarding CP budget and PC's classes; budget is not necessarily relevant to class because you can buy whatever fits/distinguishes your class and that's it. On the other hand, you could set some “house rules” and provide guidelines to your players and parameters for classes. A fighter and a knight could start with the same CP value and exactly the same skills, etc. but maybe in the future the fighter will have access to light armor only & DX up to 20 but the knight will have access to any kind of armor & DX up to 19, etc.

However, if you want balance among your players and also functional classes, you should look for character templates. You could throw 5 templates worth 100 CP each, and allow your players customize them using the remaining 150 CP.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I'm a firm believer in nothing less than 250, but people do not see it my way.

It all depends on what era of D&D one is trying to emulate. The oldest versions (OD&D, AD&D1 and 2) had characters so pathetic at low levels that a 50 point GURPS could do more. Magic-Users really sucked in those versions.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Not really, but Anthony is not remiss in noting that that at low point levels casters really get the shaft in GURPS, where at point levels to let them thrive, non-casters often get to 'unspecialized' (as in they can stop being Johnny One-Skill).

This depends on what magic system one is using and the mana level of the world. Even at low levels a GURPS wizard will generally be in far better shape then his 1st level AD&D counterpart. And he won't be worrying about dying to ordinary house cats (the way HP and damage were figured this was very possible).