Alternate approach for Languages

hcobb · 01-31-2019, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Well, that does appear to be one possible consequence (unintended, I'm sure) of there not being any minimum IQ for the learning of new languages. My proposal would address this loophole.

So make it a cap. No character can know more than more than a quarter of their IQ in languages, including their native tongue.

Exceptions:

IQ 17+ wizards get Sorcerer Tongue for free as part of their basic Wizard training.

Scholars learn new languages for only 300 XP each and can learn up to half their IQ in languages.

Giants and Dragons can also learn their full IQ in languages.

JLV · 01-31-2019, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

Giants and Dragons can also learn their full IQ in languages.

Giants? I thought Giants were considered sort of dumb...

hcobb · 01-31-2019, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

Giants? I thought Giants were considered sort of dumb...

Mythical giants seem to know a lot of languages.

Skarg · 01-31-2019, 11:29 AM

I don't follow what the issue is with the existing system that this aims to solve?

Also, from a modeling perspective, I don't understand why IQ would be used as a measure of how many languages a person can learn. After all, young children tend to be good at learning languages, and real people can be inexperienced and not very bright and still no several languages. It seems to me it really takes opportunity (and as something learned as an adult, aptitude, attitude, interest and time).

Starting Talent points in TFT seem to me to reflect opportunity and aptitude well enough, though I think they could be decoupled from IQ if someone were willing to make the point system a little more complex.

i.e. I think some talents probably would make sense to decouple from IQ in some way, perhaps just by offering them at character creation through some new trade-off mechanic other than buying IQ and spending mIQ points. I'm thinking of talents that don't seem to me to be conventionally learned (by real people), such as Acute Hearing, Alertness, Sex Appeal, Charisma, and in some cases, languages.

What the specific mechanic would be could vary, though.

TippetsTX · 01-31-2019, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

I don't follow what the issue is with the existing system that this aims to solve?

Also, from a modeling perspective, I don't understand why IQ would be used as a measure of how many languages a person can learn. After all, young children tend to be good at learning languages, and real people can be inexperienced and not very bright and still no several languages. It seems to me it really takes opportunity (and as something learned as an adult, aptitude, attitude, interest and time).

The issue (which admittedly, may not be relevant in all campaigns) is that starting characters don't want to waste their limited IQ-based talent pool on languages. At best, it is an afterthought, but more commonly in my experience, it is ignored completely which does not accurately reflect a culturally diverse game-world such as Cidri. As a GM, I want my players to use language in a dynamic way, but it's also hard for me to justify the 'cost' when compared to abilities that are more directly relevant to character capability and survival. Thus my proposal.

And while I agree that IQ may not be the most accurate measure when compared to real-world cognitive development of language, I think it is a valid abstraction in the context of existing game mechanics.

P.S. It's also worth noting that my players are primarily converts from that other fantasy RPG... the one using all the funny looking dice. Multiple languages are much more prevalent in that system.

JLV · 01-31-2019, 05:53 PM

And, THIS, kids, is why the other thread got so heated. Everyone piled on telling me that my suggestion was dumb, unnecessary, and bad think, instead of realizing that a) it was a suggestion that more accurately modeled actual language learning, b) it was only a suggestion, and c) languages are important in role-playing in the typical fantasy genre (which is more or less what Cidri is).

Oh well, all I can do is reiterate -- this is only a suggestion, and it provides a mechanism to model linguistics in a reasonable way. In fact, if you read the OP's suggestion, it actually effectively de-couples language learning from direct IQ costs (you no longer spend IQ points on languages, but simply are somewhat limited in the number you can easily learn by your unadjusted IQ attribute total...which makes it much more likely that the players will know more than one language). All in all, it's a clever way to ensure that the players have the tools to wander the wider world without having to spend time learning a bunch of new languages along the way.

TippetsTX · 01-31-2019, 07:17 PM

It's all good. I like a tough audience.

And thanks for the positive feedback.

JohnPaulB · 01-31-2019, 11:07 PM

I gave the characters their racial language. If they were mixed blood race, they knew both languages.

I made the "common tongue" the language of the dominant race of the region. The players would have to learn that too if they wanted "common tongue."
EDIT: I just looked in ITL P 44 Languages. It says the same thing.

The players had to buy any other languages.
If you bought a language, you spoke it like a native.

I made it that if you paid 1/2 point for it, you spoke a learner/broken form of that language at -3 IQ. The GM rolled for any misunderstandings.

When the player wanted the character to speak fluently, they paid the other 1/2 point.

Another way for those who don't speak the language to communicate is to use a phrase book or foreign language dictionary (like a French/English type). Consider this as learner/broken and it takes 6 turns to translate one written sentence (if you can read, know the language & their alphabet) or 12 turns if it is verbal sentence. The GM still rolls for any misunderstandings.
Or a visual dictionary of pictured items that you point at to get your meaning across.

I toyed with the idea of national languages (like French or Latin), but that became cumbersome when players took their characters to other games that didn't have that. It also eventually stopped the game, and I dropped that.
EDIT: It does mention that you can have sub-languages to your racial language. ITL P 44 Languages.

Skarg · 02-01-2019, 11:36 AM

We played it like JohnPaulB did, which I think is about what ITL expected. Most nations mostly spoke the language of their predominant race, and most nations were predominantly Human, so Human was the de facto lingua Franca, meaning most Humans could get along well with Human, and members of other races who wanted to go somewhere else often learned Human. Occasionally some people would learn another language or two. More rarely, a scholar or linguist or diplomat or traveler or noble would learn several languages.

Languages didn't seem like something that was off in cost to me, nor a particular issue for character use of talent points (any more than the talent point system poses with everything).

I like the idea of not having to put lots of talent (or XP) into learning several languages.

I'm about to run out the door, but I'm thinking of an idea where instead of limiting by IQ, and working in JohnPaulB's nice "1/2 point for partial knowledge" idea (which BTW is a bit like GURPS 4e's language system):

Default (0 pts): You can learn a language or two by spending enough time studying it, but only at non-fluent level (not points, just time).

Language Ability talent (1 talent pt): For each point in this, you can learn 1 or 2 languages up to fluent ability (using enough time), and another 1 or 2 up to non-fluent ability (with study time).

Language disability (-1 talent point): You're no good at learning languages. You can put in time but you just learn a few words and so on.

01-31-2019, 11:29 AM	#4
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Alternate approach for Languages I don't follow what the issue is with the existing system that this aims to solve? Also, from a modeling perspective, I don't understand why IQ would be used as a measure of how many languages a person can learn. After all, young children tend to be good at learning languages, and real people can be inexperienced and not very bright and still no several languages. It seems to me it really takes opportunity (and as something learned as an adult, aptitude, attitude, interest and time). Starting Talent points in TFT seem to me to reflect opportunity and aptitude well enough, though I think they could be decoupled from IQ if someone were willing to make the point system a little more complex. i.e. I think some talents probably would make sense to decouple from IQ in some way, perhaps just by offering them at character creation through some new trade-off mechanic other than buying IQ and spending mIQ points. I'm thinking of talents that don't seem to me to be conventionally learned (by real people), such as Acute Hearing, Alertness, Sex Appeal, Charisma, and in some cases, languages. What the specific mechanic would be could vary, though.

01-31-2019, 05:53 PM	#6
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Alternate approach for Languages And, THIS, kids, is why the other thread got so heated. Everyone piled on telling me that my suggestion was dumb, unnecessary, and bad think, instead of realizing that a) it was a suggestion that more accurately modeled actual language learning, b) it was only a suggestion, and c) languages are important in role-playing in the typical fantasy genre (which is more or less what Cidri is). Oh well, all I can do is reiterate -- this is only a suggestion, and it provides a mechanism to model linguistics in a reasonable way. In fact, if you read the OP's suggestion, it actually effectively de-couples language learning from direct IQ costs (you no longer spend IQ points on languages, but simply are somewhat limited in the number you can easily learn by your unadjusted IQ attribute total...which makes it much more likely that the players will know more than one language). All in all, it's a clever way to ensure that the players have the tools to wander the wider world without having to spend time learning a bunch of new languages along the way.

01-31-2019, 07:17 PM	#7
TippetsTX Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: North Texas	Re: Alternate approach for Languages It's all good. I like a tough audience. And thanks for the positive feedback. __________________ “No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos

01-31-2019, 11:07 PM	#8
JohnPaulB Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Portland, Maine	Re: Alternate approach for Languages I gave the characters their racial language. If they were mixed blood race, they knew both languages. I made the "common tongue" the language of the dominant race of the region. The players would have to learn that too if they wanted "common tongue." EDIT: I just looked in ITL P 44 Languages. It says the same thing. The players had to buy any other languages. If you bought a language, you spoke it like a native. I made it that if you paid 1/2 point for it, you spoke a learner/broken form of that language at -3 IQ. The GM rolled for any misunderstandings. When the player wanted the character to speak fluently, they paid the other 1/2 point. Another way for those who don't speak the language to communicate is to use a phrase book or foreign language dictionary (like a French/English type). Consider this as learner/broken and it takes 6 turns to translate one written sentence (if you can read, know the language & their alphabet) or 12 turns if it is verbal sentence. The GM still rolls for any misunderstandings. Or a visual dictionary of pictured items that you point at to get your meaning across. I toyed with the idea of national languages (like French or Latin), but that became cumbersome when players took their characters to other games that didn't have that. It also eventually stopped the game, and I dropped that. EDIT: It does mention that you can have sub-languages to your racial language. ITL P 44 Languages. __________________ - Hail Melee Fantasy Chess: A chess game with combat. Don't just take the square, Fight for it! https://www.shadowhex.com Last edited by JohnPaulB; 02-01-2019 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Added ITL reference pages

02-01-2019, 11:36 AM	#9
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Alternate approach for Languages We played it like JohnPaulB did, which I think is about what ITL expected. Most nations mostly spoke the language of their predominant race, and most nations were predominantly Human, so Human was the de facto lingua Franca, meaning most Humans could get along well with Human, and members of other races who wanted to go somewhere else often learned Human. Occasionally some people would learn another language or two. More rarely, a scholar or linguist or diplomat or traveler or noble would learn several languages. Languages didn't seem like something that was off in cost to me, nor a particular issue for character use of talent points (any more than the talent point system poses with everything). I like the idea of not having to put lots of talent (or XP) into learning several languages. I'm about to run out the door, but I'm thinking of an idea where instead of limiting by IQ, and working in JohnPaulB's nice "1/2 point for partial knowledge" idea (which BTW is a bit like GURPS 4e's language system): Default (0 pts): You can learn a language or two by spending enough time studying it, but only at non-fluent level (not points, just time). Language Ability talent (1 talent pt): For each point in this, you can learn 1 or 2 languages up to fluent ability (using enough time), and another 1 or 2 up to non-fluent ability (with study time). Language disability (-1 talent point): You're no good at learning languages. You can put in time but you just learn a few words and so on.