Unarmed Combat with weapons

[Mike P.]

Does anyone have house rules for using the Unarmed Combat talents with weapons? It seems to me that most schools of martial arts teach some forms of weapon use as well. In fact some weapons like nun-chuks or bo staff seem to be primarily taught by martial arts schools. If you are a fan of bad kung fu movies, you can probably find almost every weapon in AM being used by a martial artist.
Allowing all the benefits of the UC talents and weapon use however, would surely unbalance the game in the martial artist's favor.

[Helborn]

UC is UNARMED.

It is not a Martial Art per se, it is the ability to enter combat without a weapon. The weapon skills and the Expert and Master levels cover what would be, in our world, Martial Art combat skills.

No need for additional permutations.

That is why you have to have a high level of UC - IV - before you can defend.

[Tenex]

I've wondered about this too. I never encountered someone who tried to do it. While it might be unbalancing from a gameplay standpoint, it certainly isn't unrealistic for a martial artist to utilize a weapon while blocking with their arms or legs.

It is obviously possible to hold a weapon in your hands while retaining the ability to block a low kick with your leg. But when you are holding a weapon in your hand it precludes you from grasping with that hand. That precludes any kind of control hold, armbar, etc. that flows out of a blocking maneuver.

I'm not sure where I'd end up with this. It'll be interesting to see what other replies you get. Although I would tend to not allowing it for the sake of balance alone.

[RobW]

Strictly speaking UC requires both hands free

But maybe the combo of UC + weapon expertise + two weapons, plus a generous GM ruling, could be used for what you want.

[platimus]

I'm with Helborn and RobW. I would not allow the UC talents to apply to a weapon attack. The thought is so bizarre, I wonder if we have misunderstood the question.

What seemed more likely to be the question is whether or not you can make two attacks on a given turn -- one with the weapon and one with an unarmed hand (or leg).

Let's say a fighter has a one-handed sword in one hand and the other hand is empty. He can make 2 attacks. One with his sword and one with his bare-hand (punch). However, IIRC, both attacks will be -6 DX -- unless this fighter has the Two-Weapon talent. You could just as easily replace the punch in this scenario with a kick. In either case, I would use the UC talents known to govern whether or not and how a "defend" is handled for the unarmed hand (or leg) instead of the Two-Weapon rule.

[Tenex]

Originally Posted by platimus

I'm with Helborn and RobW. I would not allow the UC talents to apply to a weapon attack. The thought is so bizarre, I wonder if we have misunderstood the question.

Well, one idea would be to allow the 5 or 6 die requirements to hit when defending if armed with a traditional martial arts weapon.

Why should a UC fighter lose the "Eyes Behind" benefits just because they have a couple daggers (Sai?) in their hands?

Why does a UC fighter lose his knowledge of pressure points just because he picked up a weapon? UC provides the ability to do a certain amount of damage and cause a foe to drop his weapon because you hit them on a nerve. Now it's certainly arguable that this ability is based on the UC practitioner's advanced ability to strike deftly with their bare hands (highly practiced). But when they pick up a weapon that they are less skilled with they can't strike as precisely even though they still know where to hit.

I think there is a good argument for some of the UC abilities to remain in play even when the character is armed. Eyes Behind in particular.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Tenex

Well, one idea would be to allow the 5 or 6 die requirements to hit when defending if armed with a traditional martial arts weapon.

I don't understand this statement. You're talking about hitting (attacking) while defending. Huh? How does one attack and defend at the same time?

Why should a UC fighter lose the "Eyes Behind" benefits just because they have a couple daggers (Sai?) in their hands?

Why does a UC fighter lose his knowledge of pressure points just because he picked up a weapon? UC provides the ability to do a certain amount of damage and cause a foe to drop his weapon because you hit them on a nerve. Now it's certainly arguable that this ability is based on the UC practitioner's advanced ability to strike deftly with their bare hands (highly practiced). But when they pick up a weapon that they are less skilled with they can't strike as precisely even though they still know where to hit.

I think there is a good argument for some of the UC abilities to remain in play even when the character is armed. Eyes Behind in particular.

What you call "eyes behind", is actually called "Evade". As such, I would not allow its use if the fighter has something in either of his hands. I don't view it as a magical power. I view it as keen awareness of the brawling situation and quick reactions. Those reactions will be slowed down by wielded weapons. That seems to be the official take and I will stick to it. Of course, you are free to do otherwise.

"Nerve Blow" (pressure points)
I would allow this to be performed with an unarmed hand (or leg). With a wielded weapon? No. Weapons have aiming rules to cover this. I feel generous here because the official rule is No.

Yes, you could make good arguments for these. Thanks for clearing up the question for me. I stand by my original statement though. It would be totally bizarre to apply UC damage bonuses to weapon attacks.

[Tenex]

Originally Posted by Mike P.

Does anyone have house rules for using the Unarmed Combat talents with weapons?

My initial reply was based on reading the original TFT, not the revised one.
The "Eyes Behind" ability was more independent in the first edition (yup, still got it!). In the new edition it is blended into the Evade ability at UC4.

So as I think about it more, I think you should just use the rules for weapons mastery and have a character take weapons mastery in a martial arts type weapon. That gives you a lot of the effects you may be looking for.

I agree it doesn't make sense for the punch/kick bonuses to be applied to weapons. As I mentioned above, there are good reasons not to allow the nerve strike with weapons. Weapon mastery has it's own version of this anyway. Nerve blow is very similar to the disarming option for a weapon master.The same thing is true of the Evade ability. Weapons Mastery has its own rules for bonuses to defense.

I get that weapons are taught in the martial arts. But you don't magically get skill in a weapon without practice and that practice on the weapon is time you aren't spending on empty hand stuff. If you want a guy that can do both, just develop weapon mastery in a martial arts type weapon and build up your UC as high as you can get it. That would seem to solve this for the most part.

[larsdangly]

I think you should be able to benefit from UC for your actual unarmed attacks while you are carrying an appropriate weapon, but not use any of the benefits of the UC talents for actual attacks with that weapon. I feel like this would be realistic, in keeping with both east Asian and historical European martial arts training, and not unbalancing to the game (the only advantage being you don't have to put down and pick back up your nunchucks whenever you want to deliver a kick or something).

[platimus]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

I think you should be able to benefit from UC for your actual unarmed attacks while you are carrying an appropriate weapon, but not use any of the benefits of the UC talents for actual attacks with that weapon. I feel like this would be realistic, in keeping with both east Asian and historical European martial arts training, and not unbalancing to the game (the only advantage being you don't have to put down and pick back up your nunchucks whenever you want to deliver a kick or something).

This was my thinking as well. UC applies to punches and kicks only if you have a weapon or shield in one hand.