Why do Priests exist?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Anybody who went around Cidri with the bold claim that there is no continuation after death and that ghosts don't exist would be at the very least regarded as a madman with a dangerous delusion.

Why?

We played decades of adventures on Cidri and I don't recall anyone ever encountering a ghost.

Originally Posted by hcobb

Cidri needs priests for the same reason that New York needs sanitation workers.

Either priests are doing something with their rituals to keep down the undead problem or the public will find somebody else who does and pay them instead.

What undead problem? And how do priests help against whatever that problem is?

Originally Posted by platimus

I agree with TippetsTX thoughts on the Priest talent (as written). It's simply to conduct "the business" of a religion. That said (and as written) I can't see why your average player would take that talent but maybe that was the point.

Yes, and it covers any religion, of which there are many, whose details are up to the GM, if/when anyone cares.

Originally Posted by platimus

As written, the only motivation I can see for taking the Priest talent would be as the PCs "job" - a way to earn some money between adventures. Role-playing-wise, there would be other perks like good reactions from members of the same faith -- which might lead to various forms of aid from those NPCs.

Tacking on the ability to perform rituals and rites from "holy texts" (special form of using scrolls and spell-books) is a nice addition to the talent.

Well that's one thing that can be tacked on, or not. Depends on the GM, their world, the religion in question, etc. Religions can be really interesting without needing to have spells or magic-like abilities.

Mainly I think the absence of specified religious details is cool because of the space it leaves for GMs to do whatever. And, I like the absence of the D&D-spawned convention of priests as healers and/or undead-banishers with spells.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Why?

We played decades of adventures on Cidri and I don't recall anyone ever encountering a ghost.



What undead problem? And how do priests help against whatever that problem is?



Yes, and it covers any religion, of which there are many, whose details are up to the GM, if/when anyone cares.



Well that's one thing that can be tacked on, or not. Depends on the GM, their world, the religion in question, etc. Religions can be really interesting without needing to have spells or magic-like abilities.

Mainly I think the absence of specified religious details is cool because of the space it leaves for GMs to do whatever. And, I like the absence of the D&D-spawned convention of priests as healers and/or undead-banishers with spells.

This may shock you but I agree with all of that -- even the part in bold. That's why I'm not hanging my approach on the Priest and Theologian talents. I'm creating one or two new talents and hanging most of it on that.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Why?

Strongly agree. Anyone who thinks an afterlife exists in Cidri should be asked to provide a source.

I like the absence of the D&D-spawned convention of priests as healers and/or undead-banishers with spells.

If we generalise the D&D idea a bit, it's that priests of god X tend to have weaker forms of the powers demonstrated by god X, or by his/her mythic avatars, etc., in the famous stories about them.

• Most of what Jesus did in the gospels was healing afflictions, raising the dead, driving out demons, making food for the hungry, etc., so if his priests are getting their powers from the same source then it makes sense they can do more or less the same abilities or at least more restricted forms of those abilities.
• A follower of Zeus might have the ability to make lightning, change form into a bull, make storms, perform feats of great strength like picking up mountains, etc.
• A follower of Hanuman might have the ability to make himself larger or smaller, lighter or heavier, create useful objects, etc.

The flip side of this is what the god doesn't do, or his weaknesses, if any. Jesus may be powerful but you can't expect him to stab someone for you, he just doesn't do that. Those same restrictions might apply to his priests, or at least some of them, or at least to their magic.

The most superficial version of the D&D cleric has been done to death but a more general version of the idea may still have value. It could probably be implemented by having a god pick several powers from a menu.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

...
If we generalise the D&D idea a bit, it's that priests of god X tend to have weaker forms of the powers demonstrated by god X, or by his/her mythic avatars, etc., in the famous stories about them.

• Most of what Jesus did in the gospels was healing afflictions, raising the dead, driving out demons, making food for the hungry, etc., so if his priests are getting their powers from the same source then it makes sense they can do more or less the same abilities or at least more restricted forms of those abilities.
• A follower of Zeus might have the ability to make lightning, change form into a bull, make storms, perform feats of great strength like picking up mountains, etc.
• A follower of Hanuman might have the ability to make himself larger or smaller, lighter or heavier, create useful objects, etc.

The flip side of this is what the god doesn't do, or his weaknesses, if any. Jesus may be powerful but you can't expect him to stab someone for you, he just doesn't do that. Those same restrictions might apply to his priests, or at least some of them, or at least to their magic.

The most superficial version of the D&D cleric has been done to death but a more general version of the idea may still have value. It could probably be implemented by having a god pick several powers from a menu.

Yes, I quite agree, and have enjoyed playing or even GM'ing game settings with that sort of model, sometimes.

Also, there are/were Christian miracle healers, though they tend to be a few specific saints or shrines or faith healers or charlatans, rather than relatively common priests or mace-wielding fighters.

But I also quite like game settings like TFT where although many have faith and so religion may have great social, economic, and power-political effects, whether there are any actual god-related magic powers that aren't like spells/potions/enchantments or faith effects is a GM secret that PCs need to discover or have or get the right background to discover.

And I also like it when a GM homebrews a setting and invents original interesting magic cosmologies, especially when they do something that isn't just a remix of the D&D-based model where they're just another list of class-based powers balanced against other PC classes' powers.

[platimus]

Yep. I've given up and gone back to the role-playing / religion-design approach. Learning and using magic is by the book (ITL). If your religion has an affiliation with magic, then you've got another source for learning spells and buying magic items aside from the ones listed in ITL.

A beginning character cannot start with either Priest or Theologian talents. They will have to earn those talents through role-play within their religion. The top-ranking NPCs in the religion must offer the status to you or approve your application for those statuses.

Priest will have the stated role-playing effects plus you _may_ be able to use it as a "job" to earn a wage as appropriate and available within the local group of your religion. A bonus will be applied toward favorable reactions when dealing with your religious brothers and sisters. Likewise, a penalty to reactions might be applied if you haven't been obeying the tenets and customs of your faith.

Theologian will have the same but slightly more pronounced effects of Priest. Better chance of earning a wage for performing duties. Slightly higher wage. Slightly higher bonuses and penalties to reactions.

Some religions might require learning their "religious tongue" before you can be ordained. Some of those might require Literacy as well. Some religions might require you to learn certain spells before being ordained. Some might ban certain spells, magic or normal items, etc.

New spells will be created as/if needed/desired (RPG business as usual).

What I would like to see (get help with) is designing or fleshing out the workings of the religions listed in ITL. Fleshed out in manner similar to how the Wizard's Guild is fleshed out.

Do they teach spells? Which spells and what is the price of this service?
Do they ban spells? Which ones?
Tithing?
Do they sell magic items? Which ones and how much do they cost?
Are there weapon and armor restrictions?

Perhaps these questions are mostly irrelevant in a broad sense for the major religions but are there small, local sects/order/denominations within the major religions where these questions have more relevance. At present, that would seem like a good approach for fleshing out the religious aspects of a new campaign -- to outline some of these smaller sub-groups within one of the major religions for that old-fashioned cult-y feel.

[hcobb]

What about religions that are all about shrines to your departed family members. ITL they can actually manifest.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by hcobb

What about religions that are all about shrines to your departed family members. ITL they can actually manifest.

What about them? Where's the problem?

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by platimus

A beginning character cannot start with either Priest or Theologian talents. They will have to earn those talents through role-play within their religion. The top-ranking NPCs in the religion must offer the status to you or approve your application for those statuses.

I actually quite like this approach and not just for the Priest/Theologian talents. It would make it hard if a player had his heart set on a 'Solomon Kane' archetype, but I'm sure a clever GM could figure something out.

I still have the same challenge, however, in that the talents really need some kind of in-game benefit (beyond job qualification and societal prestige) to justify choosing the priestly path. I guess it comes back to the original question "why do priests exist?"... not in the context of their broader role in the campaign setting, but in the more specific context of the adventuring player character. What is their function in the party?

[platimus]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I actually quite like this approach and not just for the Priest/Theologian talents. It would make it hard if a player had his heart set on a 'Solomon Kane' archetype, but I'm sure a clever GM could figure something out.

Thanks. Why does it make it hard? I haven't read any SK books but I saw a good SK movie. I don't remember SK doing any of the things described by Priest and Theologian in the RAW during that movie. What can SK do that can't be accomplished with spells and magic-items? Whatever spells and magic-items that he needs to be SK could taught, loaned, or given to him by the church or some sub-cult/wing of the church.

I still have the same challenge, however, in that the talents really need some kind of in-game benefit (beyond job qualification and societal prestige) to justify choosing the priestly path. I guess it comes back to the original question "why do priests exist?"... not in the context of their broader role in the campaign setting, but in the more specific context of the adventuring player character. What is their function in the party?

I feel like I've buffed those talents as much as they should ever be buffed. If I were writing ITL, I'd drop them altogether.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by platimus

Thanks. Why does it make it hard? I haven't read any SK books but I saw a good SK movie. I don't remember SK doing any of the things described by Priest and Theologian in the RAW during that movie. What can SK do that can't be accomplished with spells and magic-items? Whatever spells and magic-items that he needs to be SK could taught, loaned, or given to him by the church or some sub-cult/wing of the church.

You're absolutely right (though one could argue that his berserker strength is faith-driven), but I wasn't referring to his powers. Rather I was referring to the fact that his 'adventuring' started after he left the priesthood which would be difficult using your model requiring a character to acquire priestly training later in their career. Sorry if wasn't clear about that (its still a good idea, though).