IQ points, talents, spells, XP

[platimus]

I like that character point approach. I'm not so sure about the numbers and costs though.

I like the official rules/changes regarding IQ only matters during character creation and XP buys stats, talents, and spells after that. I will definitely change the XP costs to the ones below though...

Added attribute point / XP cost
33 / 200
34 / 400
35 / 600
36 / 800
37 / 1200
38 / 2000
39 / 3000
40th and later / 5000

Talent(1) costs 400XP
Talent(2) costs 800XP
Talent(3) costs 1200XP

You may notice that the cost of going from a 32-point character to a 35-point character (3-point increase) is the same as the cost of a 3-point Talent.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally Posted by platimus

I like that character point approach. I'm not so sure about the numbers and costs though.

Those might change. I at least wanted to have the basic character points idea, and doubling above a certain attribute total.

I like the official rules/changes regarding IQ only matters during character creation and XP buys stats, talents, and spells after that. I will definitely change the XP costs to the ones below though...

I was composing a long post to go into the IQ/Talents thread, complete with analysis of costs, and comparisons of starting points with XP. That thought led to "Why not build everything with XP," which led to "No, character points," and "100 XP equals one character point..." I also realized that as someone else mentioned somewhere, I can't remember who or on which thread, Talents is effectively a derived stat based on IQ. I thought, why not make it its own stat... and that other post evaporated, and this one asserted itself.

(Less disjointedly: if you take the XP chart literally, and extend it downward, that means each of the first 32 points you start with are effectively worth 100 XP each. Except that the ones you spend on IQ are effectively worth 600 XP each, because they give you +1 IQ and 500 XP worth of Talents or Spells. If you don't take IQ 16, you're leaving points on the table. Logically, that means we should separate talent/spell points from IQ entirely. Still thinking in terms of XP, I tried to keep attribute points at 100 and talents at 500, but that made the exchange rate wonky; the next step was to make them all character points, and buy talents as well as attributes at 1/1; the cost of attributes increase above 34, to match with the XP progression, but talents are always 1/1. The back-conversion of 100 XP to 1 character point was obvious.)

[TippetsTX]

Interesting idea, but what is your problem statement? Are you trying to 'fix' something or simply creating a variant character creation mechanic?

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Interesting idea, but what is your problem statement? Are you trying to 'fix' something or simply creating a variant character creation mechanic?

The problem statement is that during character creation, points spent on IQ effectively get you 600 XP worth of "stuff" (e.g. 1 IQ plus 500 XP worth of talents or spells), while points spent on ST or DX effectively get you 100 XP worth of stuff (e.g. 1 ST or 1 DX), but that relationship breaks after character creation. From a cost benefit standpoint, there's no reason to have characters that aren't ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16, and invest all of your XP into ST or DX as needed, because you'll always be behind the curve on talents and spells.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

The problem statement is that during character creation, points spent on IQ effectively get you 600 XP worth of "stuff" (e.g. 1 IQ plus 500 XP worth of talents or spells), while points spent on ST or DX effectively get you 100 XP worth of stuff (e.g. 1 ST or 1 DX), but that relationship breaks after character creation. From a cost benefit standpoint, there's no reason to have characters that aren't ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16, and invest all of your XP into ST or DX as needed, because you'll always be behind the curve on talents and spells.

Oh. Well, I've got an easy solution to that:

New (human) characters start with ST8, DX8, IQ8 and 8 points to distrubute. New characters start with 10 points of talents/spells. After creation, talents/spells cost 500XP or more.

[TippetsTX]

OK, but your premise doesn't take into account the fact that ST and DX are arguably just as critical (if not moreso) even w/o the 'extra' benefit of being used to purchase talents. I believe that character survivability and martial effectiveness have just as much inherent weight as what you get from IQ.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

OK, but your premise doesn't take into account the fact that ST and DX are arguably just as critical (if not moreso) even w/o the 'extra' benefit of being used to purchase talents. I believe that character survivability and martial effectiveness have just as much inherent weight as what you get from IQ.

I agree. I concur.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally Posted by platimus

I agree. I concur.

Either IQ is massively overvalued during character creation, and of normal value after (to the tune of 6 to 1 against ST or DX), or it's of normal value during and borderline worthless after.

A character with ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 is effectively 800 XP + 800 XP + 1600 XP (IQ) + 8000 XP (talents/spells), for 11,200 XP, while a character with IQ 8 and the other 24 points in ST and DX is effectively 7,200 XP.

That's a big difference. 4000 XP, or eight talent/spells worth!

Edit: Or, the third option, is that talents are way too expensive, at 500 XP per. Maybe they should be less? Say, 100 XP per, bringing them on par with ST, DX, and IQ?

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

OK, but your premise doesn't take into account the fact that ST and DX are arguably just as critical (if not moreso) even w/o the 'extra' benefit of being used to purchase talents. I believe that character survivability and martial effectiveness have just as much inherent weight as what you get from IQ.

If they're worth more, then okay, but make them cost more also.

If ST and DX are just as critical, why, during character creation, does each cost 100 XP, but IQ cost 600 XP? Or why is each point of ST or DX "only" worth 100 points, while each point of IQ is worth 600?

The assumption, if we take the XP for attributes chart literally, is that at "34 points and below" every attribute point is worth 100 XP. Except that buying IQ after character creation doesn't give you the same benefit as it does during character creation.

Why is 1 IQ worth 600 points during character creation, but 100 points after? Or, rather, why does it get you 600 points worth of value (e.g. +1 IQ and +1 talent/spell) but only 100 points worth after (+1 IQ)?

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

If ST and DX are just as critical, why, during character creation, does each cost 100 XP, but IQ cost 600 XP? Or why is each point of ST or DX "only" worth 100 points, while each point of IQ is worth 600?

I know this is a separate topic, but that's actually one of my issues w/ the new rules that try to quantify the cost of talents in terms of XP. By doing that, the inequity you see now is created, but it isn't an accurate reflection of the intent or relative 'weight' of the stats when you look at them holistically.

To me, it is the unintended consequence of the XP for talents rule.