Vancian Magic

[David Bofinger]

I was wondering how you'd do Dying Earth-style Vancian magic in TFT. In Dying Earth spells had to be memorised, squatted in the memoriser's mind causing mental stress, could be used once and were then forgotten.

I think a natural way to do it would be:

• Characters learn spells as usual.
• Learning a spell allows you to memorise it by reading from a book.
• Memorising a spell reduces the wizard's adjusted IQ by 1.
• All the IQ tasks like perception and willpower checks use adjIQ.
• Casting a spell costs no ST.
• When you cast the spell you forget it.
• When you cast the spell you get the adjIQ back.

A few ambiguities and unanswered questions:

• Do you need adjIQ equal to a spell's IQ requirement to memorise a spell? I think probably yes.
• Do you need adjIQ equal to a spell's IQ requirement to cast a spell? I think probably yes.
• Can you forget a spell and recover the adjIQ without casting it? I think probably yes.
• Can you memorise several copies of a spell? You never see anyone doing this in Dying Earth, but it's not clearly ruled out either.
• How do you pay the per-turn cost of a spell?
• How long does it take to memorise a spell?

Some interesting consequences:

• Wizards would have to start with weaker spells and finish with strong ones as their adjIQ recovered.
• Wizards wouldn't be as useful as scouts, since a lot of the time they walk around with low adjIQ.
• Wizards wouldn't increase their fragility as they cast.
• Wizards might use a wider variety of spells.
• Wizards will need to bring their spell books with them.

[robertsconley]

Looks good.

I would not have adjIQ effect all IQ Skills. I don't remember much about the novels but I would look at what "Mental Stress" means and limit it effect to what Vance describes.

Again I haven't read the novels in a long time. It may be everything if so then ignore the above comment.

[Buzzardo]

For a second (on my tablet - small font), I read that as Vatican Magic, which could also be interesting (in the sense of spells available only to followers of a specific church).

[zot]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

• How do you pay the per-turn cost of a spell?

I had to deal with this with my Theurgy system and I talk about it in my designer's notes. I calculated a "reasonable amount of ST per day", folding XP spent on staff mana into the (substantial) talent costs. For Vancian magic, I'd try to use XP in a similar way.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

I would look at what "Mental Stress" means and limit it effect to what Vance describes.

"Mental stress" is my term. As I recall the limit on the number of spells Mazirian could memorise was the risk of insanity. But it's been a while.

I think it should affect perception for sure, and some kinds of will but maybe not all, prerequisites for talents is a tough one. Some thinking to do here.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

How do you pay the per-turn cost of a spell?

To clarify: should it cost ST as in the standard game? Do you only get the adjIQ back when the spell finishes? There's lots of ways it could work.

[zot]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

To clarify: should it cost ST as in the standard game? Do you only get the adjIQ back when the spell finishes? There's lots of ways it could work.

Did you have a look at my notes? Because the Theurgy system shares a lot with Vancian magic. It doesn't use ST and still handles continuing effects.

There doesn't have to be a ST cost. I wouldn't turn adjIQ right away, either. I'd cost out the spells so that a Vancian mage is not more powerful than a normal TFT wizard in terms of the total ST cost of spells used in a day. I did a lot of thinking on how to do that and I wrote it all up in the designer's notes.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by zot

Did you have a look at my notes?

I did, and I saw one line "Continuing a power requires a “cast spell” action" which seemed to be relevant, but the other two thousand words or so seemed to be about other subjects. I was clarifying in case you hadn't understood me, but maybe I didn't understand. Or just missed the critical line.

[zot]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

I did, and I saw one line "Continuing a power requires a “cast spell” action" which seemed to be relevant, but the other two thousand words or so seemed to be about other subjects. I was clarifying in case you hadn't understood me, but maybe I didn't understand. Or just missed the critical line.

I think you'd want "complete payment in advance" for each spell, so the system doesn't need extra bookkeeping, paying one point per ST. In Theurgy, "spells" all have the same costs but I think it makes sense for your system just to use the given ST cost in points.

I can see three ways to handle continuing spells:

1) As with my system, take a "representative combat" to be 6 turns, so the wizard pays points to maintain for 6 turns but it can actually work for 12 turns, if needed. It over-pays for shorter combats but under-pays for longer ones, which ought to even out. If you buy my "time for a representative combat" idea, this is a simple way to do it.

2) The wizard pays the exact maintenance cost at memorization time and this determines how long the effect can last when it is cast.

3) A hybrid approach: the wizard decides on a duration but pays 1/2 the maintenance cost, since there is a risk of over-pricing. This probably averages out pretty well because a wizard can only cast one spell per turn anyway, so only the first spell can possibly last for the entire length of a combat.

I think #1 or #3 is probably best. In any case, the effect could be canceled early but there are no refunds :).

Point management

You are already limiting points by IQ but I'd add an additional limitation by having memorization take 15 minutes per point to keep it balanced with wizard ST recovery times, allowing partial memorization to be continued throughout the day. Memorization would have to be done restfully, like with recovering ST.

Additionally, I'd allow a wizard to start memorizing several spells before sleep and have them "set in their mind" during sleep (using the partial memorization idea). This would allow a wizard to wake up "fully charged" with a set of spells, so they don't have to wait 15 minutes per point for those initial spells.

[tbeard1999]

I’ve always liked the quasi-Vancian system of D&D because it just works. The ornamentation you suggest might be fun, or might not. My initial impression is that I wouldn’t like it, but that’s just a first impression. Since IQ drives a lot of things besides spell selection, I’d be reticent to reduce it when learning spells.

Anyhow, I’d create the least fiddly system I could, then playtest. Once the system is determined to be solid, add ornamentation a little at a time.

One thing I’d do is consider *why* you’re using a different magic system. And if it effectively replicates the existing system on average, why bother? Or to put it another way, prepare a list of pros and cons of the Vancian system.