New Skills

[zot]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Let us say you want to be an adventurer who can fight, but also wants to do a couple of other things. For example, I want to write up a Heroic Leader who is also a Ranger. (Kinda like a simpler version of Aragorn.)

These are the talents which my Ranger Prince needs:
Sword, Shield, Bow, Missile Weapons, Tactics, Strategist, Charisma, Diplomacy, Horsemanship, Literacy, Courtly Graces, Naturalist, Tracking, Woodsman, Alertness, Climbing. This is 24 mIQ.

Might someone want to play a prince who can fight and is a bit of a ranger? Sure! After reading Lord of the Rings, I went thru a period when I thought Aragorn was a totally cool character. I've NOT given him Expert Naturalist, Fencing, Math, Swimming, Butcher, Mimic, or a few other talents which would be useful to such a character. This is the minimum talent list I really need to represent the character I would like to play.

Now arguing, that Missile Weapons REALLY does not require 30% of my total mental capacity because it represents the time to stay in practice sounds facile, but it MISSES THE POINT. I can't write up a Commander of Men, who is also a Ranger in the old TFT. In the new TFT it is even worse.

Talents just take up too much memory to create many types of fun characters which exist in real life and in fiction. They are simply impossible in new TFT. This is why most long running TFT games cheat when it comes to memory and talents.

...

I can't write up a Commander of Men, who is also a Ranger in the old TFT. In the new TFT it is even worse.

It's important to understand that the clarification I asked for earlier and Guy's current suggestion make a distinction between talent costs and the number of talents a character can have. The Ranger Prince has 16 talents that cost 24 talent points, which is entirely possible for a TFT character under Guy's suggestion.

With attributes / 2 as the limit, characters can have between 16 and 20 talents. They still have to pay for them at the normal costs but they can keep spending XP on them even after they reach the 40-point limit, so the Ranger Prince can eventually get all of the listed talents by paying the 24 required talent points and he'll still have 4 more talent slots available.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by zot

It's important to understand that the clarification I asked for earlier and Guy's current suggestion make a distinction between talent costs and the number of talents a character can have. The Ranger Prince has 16 talents that cost 24 talent points, which is entirely possible for a TFT character under Guy's suggestion.

With attributes / 2 as the limit, characters can have between 16 and 20 talents. They still have to pay for them at the normal costs but they can keep spending XP on them even after they reach the 40-point limit, so the Ranger Prince can eventually get all of the listed talents by paying the 24 required talent points and he'll still have 4 more talent slots available.

Hi Zot, Guy, everyone.
Thanks Zot for the clarification! Yes, I somehow missed what Guy was saying about slots and points. (When I reread his post, it was quite clear.)

However, Steve did not seem pleased by the idea of memory equals to (ST + DX + IQ)/2 so I don't think that will fly. However, if we use Guy's idea that series of talents go into the same slot, the Ranger / Prince would save 1 extra memory because the points put into Tactics and Strategy would save a slot.

But Guy's points / slot idea still means that expensive talents become proportionally more valuable than 'small' talents like Horsemanship, Seamanship, Driving, Climbing, etc.

But using Guy's rules (but not using the mIQ = [total attr.]/2), the Ranger Prince could be created by creating a character with ST 11, DX 14, IQ 15. (Ignoring points, the character needs 16 slots, but less one for the Tactics / Strategist saving. Further the character could eventually pick up Expert Naturalist as a bonus.)

So Guy's rules actually addresses my major concern.

Warm regards, Rick.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

But using Guy's rules (but not using the mIQ = [total attr.]/2), the Ranger Prince could be created by creating a character with ST 11, DX 14, IQ 15. (Ignoring points, the character needs 16 slots, but less one for the Tactics / Strategist saving. Further the character could eventually pick up Expert Naturalist as a bonus.)

So Guy's rules actually addresses my major concern.

I think I misunderstood Guy's section about professional knowledge. I thought he was only referring to mundane talents, so I addressed that in my response.

If stacking professional knowledge would mean that UC V takes only one talent slot, I don't think that would be good.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

... But Guy's points / slot idea still means that expensive talents become proportionally more valuable than 'small' talents like Horsemanship, Seamanship, Driving, Climbing, etc.

But using Guy's rules (but not using the mIQ = [total attr.]/2), the Ranger Prince could be created by creating a character with ST 11, DX 14, IQ 15. (Ignoring points, the character needs 16 slots, but less one for the Tactics / Strategist saving. Further the character could eventually pick up Expert Naturalist as a bonus.)

So Guy's rules actually addresses my major concern.

Warm regards, Rick.

Hi all,
Guy had suggested that talents cost more XP to buy, but always fit into a single memory slot. (Kinda like how spells always fit into a single memory slot.)

Shostak, mentioned the Grey Mouser. If we wanted to write up the Grey Mouser, we might pick the following talents:

Sword(2), Two Handed Weapons (3) (he wields scalpel & cats claw), Fencing (3), Thrown Weapons (2), Seamanship (1), Boating (1), Sex Appeal (1), Running (2), Horsemanship (1), Swimming (1), Charisma (2), Silent Movement (2), Recognize Value (1), Assess Value(1), Climbing (1) (He and Fafrd climbed the mountain Stardock after all), Brawling (1), Thief (2), Master Thief (2), Disguise (2) and a couple spells since he was trained as a magician and occasionally dabbled in magic. This is equal to 32 mIQ + what ever spells you want to give him.

Some possible talents which I've not included are: Tactics (1), Master Horsemanship (1), Carousing (1), New Followers (2), Tracking (1), Diplomacy (1), Captain (2), a couple languages, and a few others.


Under the rules Guy was suggesting, (where each talent fits into a single slot) the Mouser would need 19 memory slots, (plus any spells), which might just be possible under the new TFT.

However, in the Unarmed Combat thread, Steve was saying that UC i thru v would take up a full 9 memory slots. This means that exotic multi-class characters like (Pirates AND Thief), (Bandit Leader AND Ranger), and (Master Merchants) are impossible in new TFT.

***

For those who don't remember, this is my dimwitted, but friendly pirate whom I want to play:

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

... Most adventurers want to have a few fighting skills, (say Sword, Shield, & Running), and if they take some other talents (Thief, Detect Traps, Climbing, & Silent MA), then they are DONE. ... Boating, Seamanship & Swimming ... Charisma or Sex Appeal. ...Guns and Missile Weapons ...

I consider this THE major problem with new TFT.

What conceivable bonus to game play or role playing is achieved, by making memory so tight that you can't be both a thief and a pirate?

Warm regards, Rick.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

...
This is equal to 32 mIQ + what ever spells you want to give him.
...
Under the rules Guy was suggesting, (where each talent fits into a single slot) the Mouser would need 19 memory slots, (plus any spells), which might just be possible under the new TFT.

However, in the Unarmed Combat thread, Steve was saying that UC i thru v would take up a full 9 memory slots. This means that exotic multi-class characters like (Pirates AND Thief), (Bandit Leader AND Ranger), and (Master Merchants) are impossible in new TFT.
...
I consider this THE major problem with new TFT.

What conceivable bonus to game play or role playing is achieved, by making memory so tight that you can't be both a thief and a pirate?

The old TFT would require IQ 32 for a character like that. I've never seen a character get to IQ 32 in TFT.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by zot

The old TFT would require IQ 32 for a character like that. I've never seen a character get to IQ 32 in TFT.

Hi Zot,
You are totally right. The Mouser was impossible in the old TFT, but most TFT campaigns which have lasted 40 years, have ways to give more memory.

I've seen, education attributes, memory = 2x IQ, "Elves get Naturalist, Woodsman, Tracking and Bow for free, only makes sense", everyone gets certain talents for free. I've seen David Seagraves in this Thail campaign give people the ability to buy memory like a sub attribute, On this forum, people have said that they use the rule that every talent fits in one memory slot. If I remember correctly JLV has said that talents in his campaign require zero memory slots, and are bought with experience. I've reduced the price of talents by 1/2 in many cases, and allow 1/2 memory point talents & languages.

I'm not saying EVERY campaign has founds cheats, big or small. But most do.

The number and variety of ways different GM's have found to get more memory suggest that 40 years of play testing indicates that this is a real problem.

***

The new TFT will have this problem worse. In the old TFT, you could keep getting attributes, and buy more IQ. Sure, you have a dumb fighter, but to get the talents he wants, you end up with IQ 18. But with a maximum attribute limit of 40, people can customize their characters with only 8 attributes. If you want a 15 DX and a 12+ ST, getting an IQ 18 for all those talents won't be in the cards.

***
I want to write up a Monk detective like Brother Cadfael. He started out as a successful noble military leader but grew sick at the violence and greed, and retired to become a Benedictine monk. With a surprisingly modern view of evidence and criminology, he solves murders. His talents include:

Sword, Fencing, Knife, Shield, Alertness, Priest, Theologian, Language Latin, Language French, Literacy, Gardener, Physicker, Master Physicker, Tracking, Naturalist, Woodsman, Detection of Lies, Scholar (Criminology, Healing/Poisoning Herbs), Chemist.

(I could give him more based on the novels. UC 1, Courtly Graces, & Diplomacy would likely fit.)

Playing a Monk/Detective like this would be fun. I can do it in Matt's TFT campaign, but it is not in the cards for new TFT.

Warm regards, Rick.

[pyratejohn]

Where is the balance point between too few skill points and too many?
Are we going for an old school “few skills” feeling? Where skill means your character is REALLY good at that thing? Or do we want the everybody has a bunch of skills situation? Where sometimes characters begin to feel a little “samey” because they all pick a bunch of like skills?

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by pyratejohn

Where is the balance point between too few skill points and too many?
Are we going for an old school “few skills” feeling? Where skill means your character is REALLY good at that thing? Or do we want the everybody has a bunch of skills situation? Where sometimes characters begin to feel a little “samey” because they all pick a bunch of like skills?

Hi PyrateJohn, everyone.
I've added a lot of new talents, and I assure you that characters in my campaign don't feel 'samey'. But in new TFT, you can't be a pirate AND a thief. Someone with IQ 12 is crazy if they take Horsemanship, that is 1/12 of everything they can ever learn.

That suggests that the sweet spot is on the side of more memory needed.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Chris Rice]

I know I've mentioned this before, but there was a simple fix for this in an old Space Gamer article.

Split attributes into their components:

ST splits into: Strength and Constitution.
DX splits into: Dexterity and Agility.
IQ splits into: Intelligence and Knowledge.

With IQ split this way it's simple to have as many Talents as you want as long as you put XP into Knowledge and you can do this without boosting IQ.

This way, Rick's "Cadfael" character is easily possible without any other rule changes.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I know I've mentioned this before, but there was a simple fix for this in an old Space Gamer article.

Split attributes into their components: ...

This way, Rick's "Cadfael" character is easily possible without any other rule changes.

Hi Chris, everyone.
I have almost every issue of The Space Gamer (TSG), and I have no memory of that article. Do you happen to know which issue it is in? (If it is too much trouble to find, don't worry about it.) I would love to reread it.

Warm regards, Rick.