New Skills

JLV · 07-07-2018, 01:47 PM

I don't think that's what he said at all, Rick -- I think he's stating that the only real difference between skilled opponents often comes down to luck. And presumably, the people who all have the various talents are roughly equal in skill in most ways.

Kirk · 07-07-2018, 02:01 PM

Well, after 40 years of playing this game I have the impression that perhaps, perhaps, some type of second level of skill might make sense, perhaps akin to the "orphaned" approach given prior.

To the point, once someone gets ax/mace talent only DX really affects how they do.

Archers can ramp up with Missile Weapons, Thrown Weapons is for guys that specialize in throwing stuff, UC I-V for those that practice martial arts, but there really is no progression past IQ 8 or 9 for becoming more skilled with a blade or axe. Fencing talent doesn't really do it, maybe it could be replaced.

Perhaps something aligned with aimed shots, where the skill reduces the DX disadvantage when an aimed shot is taken a point or two, making more pinpoint damage a possibility beyond just being "faster" and hacking generically at a foe.

marctabyanan · 07-07-2018, 05:32 PM

Definitely a Streetwise equivalent. I would also suggest a Heraldry talent—knowledge of the arts, people and politics, but no musical instruments.

A Lore or Area Knlowledge would be nice as well.

ak_aramis · 07-08-2018, 02:09 AM

Rick's list, plus a Writer talent, as mentioned by Skarg.

IMO, Quickdraw should have a DX penalty or an extra die vs AdjDX for the attack, not separate QD roll, with a note that a fumble results in disarming oneself.

Chris Rice · 07-08-2018, 04:09 AM

Ok, Rick asked for some more information on my views, so here goes:

If we look at Sword and Sorcery fiction (the quoted example was of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser), but it could easily have been Conan or Elric; the heroes are often faced with life and death challenges which they nearly always somehow manage to overcome by the skin of their teeth. For us to believe that the heroes are in real danger, the challenge they face has to have a high chance of them failing to overcome it. The heroes are of course skilled individuals in their own worlds, but their escapes from tight spots often go beyond mere skill; they are rescued by a powerful Magician, spared by the lascivious Evil Queen, find a hidden Scroll etc. How does this happen? Well, obviously it suits the authors purpose and that of the story, but how do we make our games reflect this?

Many modern RPG designs such as FATE, Barbarians of Lemuria etc have accepted that some sort of means must exist beyond skills/Talents/attributes, and include some sort of Luck/Hero/Karma mechanism which allows the player to overcome bad luck or otherwise influence the story direction in some way. If we allow this survivability to be purely by skill/talents, then logically, the characters must never have faced enough of a challenge in the first place.

Now, Melee/Wizard are renowned as tough games with high casualty rates, which is fine for one-off games, but those of us wanting to run extended campaigns need something else. Of course, the GM can fudge things to keep the characters alive, as I've often done, but wouldn't it be better if the players could fudge things themselves?

Now, sorry for being a bit long winded here, but I'll finish by summarising with two points:

1. I did not say we shouldn't have advanced combat Talents. What I said was I didn't think the solution was to have "lots of Advanced combat Talents." In other words, the problem (if it's felt to be a problem) won't be solved entirely in this way.

2. Having "Karma" points or whatever you want to call them, allows us to more closely follow the kind of things that happen in the stories, enhances player choice and increases character survivability without attribute bloat or massively expanding the Talent system.

Rick_Smith · 07-07-2018, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

I don't think that's what he said at all, Rick -- I think he's stating that the only real difference between skilled opponents often comes down to luck. And presumably, the people who all have the various talents are roughly equal in skill in most ways.

Hi JLV, everyone.
Oh, maybe? Want to weigh in Chris?

Fencing is IQ 10, and requires a DX of 14. So a starting character can take both Sword and Fencing talents.

So someone with Sword + Fencing feels to me like a "talented beginner" or perhaps a "competent swordsman". Good but not exceptional. Certainly not the best of the best, the master swordsman of sagas & legends.

Under current rules (where you can pick up as many talents as you want), characters with another focus (say a Thief armed with a rapier), could max out sword fighting talents fairly casually. "You know, swords are not my main focus, but it is only one talent. What the heck. I'll be equal skilled to the best swordsman. Why not?"

***
UC v, requires DX 16, & 11 memory. UC v is an example of a "hard to get talent".

If Strike Master (6), required a fairly high IQ (need to know lots of physiology of many different types of creatures and monsters), then gaining it would require some focus and effort. Our casual thief might not have the IQ, or wish to spend that much experience to get the 6 point talent.

Expert Defender (4), needs medium ST & IQ and requires a high DX. Our casual thief has the DX & IQ, but being in fights defending is not his main focus. If there was a better hiding / sneaking talent (which I suggested), maybe he would go for that rather than getting a couple more ST and taking this talent?

Trained Reflexes (11), adj DX 16+. (Perhaps broken up into a couple of talents). This gives UC v like abilities but for armoured fighters. No way the casual thief is getting this.

***

A few tough to get, powerful talents would increase the number of characters possible. TFT could better distinguish between a beginner, an average practitioner, and a master. It would also give something for a mid level player to really lust after. "Let's play next week! I'm only 3 sessions away from getting talent X!"

Warm regards, Rick.

JLV · 07-08-2018, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi JLV, everyone.
Oh, maybe? Want to weigh in Chris?

I think you're being excessively hostile here.

Rick_Smith · 07-08-2018, 01:23 PM

>> Rick Wrote:
>> "Oh, maybe? Chris would you like to weigh in?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

I think you're being excessively hostile here.

Hi JLV,
No hostility was intended. I had not considered the idea that you brought up and considered it possible, (tho certainly not certain from what Chris had said). I asked Chris, and he was kind enough to clarify.

Warm regards, Rick.

JLV · 07-08-2018, 02:11 PM

Roger that Rick; I later read his response, which was calm and well-reasoned. And your response to same. It just seemed like you were getting very defensive there and I was concerned that we were pushing past the cooperative stage here...

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

07-07-2018, 01:47 PM	#1
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: New Skills I don't think that's what he said at all, Rick -- I think he's stating that the only real difference between skilled opponents often comes down to luck. And presumably, the people who all have the various talents are roughly equal in skill in most ways.

07-07-2018, 02:01 PM	#2
Kirk Join Date: Feb 2018	Re: New Skills Well, after 40 years of playing this game I have the impression that perhaps, perhaps, some type of second level of skill might make sense, perhaps akin to the "orphaned" approach given prior. To the point, once someone gets ax/mace talent only DX really affects how they do. Archers can ramp up with Missile Weapons, Thrown Weapons is for guys that specialize in throwing stuff, UC I-V for those that practice martial arts, but there really is no progression past IQ 8 or 9 for becoming more skilled with a blade or axe. Fencing talent doesn't really do it, maybe it could be replaced. Perhaps something aligned with aimed shots, where the skill reduces the DX disadvantage when an aimed shot is taken a point or two, making more pinpoint damage a possibility beyond just being "faster" and hacking generically at a foe.

07-07-2018, 05:32 PM	#3
marctabyanan Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: New Skills Definitely a Streetwise equivalent. I would also suggest a Heraldry talent—knowledge of the arts, people and politics, but no musical instruments. A Lore or Area Knlowledge would be nice as well.

07-08-2018, 02:09 AM	#4
ak_aramis Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Alsea, OR	Re: New Skills Rick's list, plus a Writer talent, as mentioned by Skarg. IMO, Quickdraw should have a DX penalty or an extra die vs AdjDX for the attack, not separate QD roll, with a note that a fumble results in disarming oneself.

07-08-2018, 04:09 AM	#5
Chris Rice Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland	Re: New Skills Ok, Rick asked for some more information on my views, so here goes: If we look at Sword and Sorcery fiction (the quoted example was of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser), but it could easily have been Conan or Elric; the heroes are often faced with life and death challenges which they nearly always somehow manage to overcome by the skin of their teeth. For us to believe that the heroes are in real danger, the challenge they face has to have a high chance of them failing to overcome it. The heroes are of course skilled individuals in their own worlds, but their escapes from tight spots often go beyond mere skill; they are rescued by a powerful Magician, spared by the lascivious Evil Queen, find a hidden Scroll etc. How does this happen? Well, obviously it suits the authors purpose and that of the story, but how do we make our games reflect this? Many modern RPG designs such as FATE, Barbarians of Lemuria etc have accepted that some sort of means must exist beyond skills/Talents/attributes, and include some sort of Luck/Hero/Karma mechanism which allows the player to overcome bad luck or otherwise influence the story direction in some way. If we allow this survivability to be purely by skill/talents, then logically, the characters must never have faced enough of a challenge in the first place. Now, Melee/Wizard are renowned as tough games with high casualty rates, which is fine for one-off games, but those of us wanting to run extended campaigns need something else. Of course, the GM can fudge things to keep the characters alive, as I've often done, but wouldn't it be better if the players could fudge things themselves? Now, sorry for being a bit long winded here, but I'll finish by summarising with two points: 1. I did not say we shouldn't have advanced combat Talents. What I said was I didn't think the solution was to have "lots of Advanced combat Talents." In other words, the problem (if it's felt to be a problem) won't be solved entirely in this way. 2. Having "Karma" points or whatever you want to call them, allows us to more closely follow the kind of things that happen in the stories, enhances player choice and increases character survivability without attribute bloat or massively expanding the Talent system.

07-08-2018, 02:11 PM	#9
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: New Skills Roger that Rick; I later read his response, which was calm and well-reasoned. And your response to same. It just seemed like you were getting very defensive there and I was concerned that we were pushing past the cooperative stage here... My apologies for the misunderstanding.