Exposition on a battle on a flight of stairs, using the GURPS rules

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

There's a cat laying on my hands so I can't reach the book right now.

They do that. On Purpose.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

If you've only got Basic and thus don't have access to those penalties, I'd suggest that if the stairwell (or any other corridor) is neither wider nor taller than your weapon's maximum reach, just say no to Swing attacks. Note that narrow stairs can have good overhead clearance.

I'd slightly disagree. Most two-handed swinging weapons are held relatively low and close to the body. For example, two-handed sword use starts from a stance where the hilt of the sword is roughly at groin level.

Unless you're going for A-o-A (strong) Telegraphic attacks at maximum reach, making yourself look like a stereotypical barbarian hero on the cover of a fantasy novel in the process, it is possible use Reach C,1,2 melee weapons in somewhat cramped quarters, and even use them to make effective swing attacks! Just make sure the weapon's tip doesn't go much above your head, and that you keep your swinging attacks in the more or less vertical plane (like chopping wood).

The exceptions are that purely swinging weapons where the weapon's length is longer than the narrowest dimension of the space will have problems. You have to choke up on the shaft and even then you've got a lot of excess pole sticking out behind your body. That seriously messes with your ability to attack and defend, especially if you're on a slope or a staircase where the ground is higher behind you, forcing you to hold the weapon with the head facing downwards.

At that point, you're pretty much limited to thrusts, and you'll have a hell of a time getting your weapon around corners. Using a pikestaff in a realistic cave setting isn't recommended!

Many years ago, my local SCA group used to put on demos at gaming cons, showing that it is possible to effectively use a two-handed sword, or a dueling glaive, in your stereotypical 10' wide x 10' high corridor, or even your OSHA minimum 3' x 7' high corridor.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You can choose to do a Telegraphic Attack for +4 (and +2 to enemy defenses, if they get any) and you can choose to do an AOA for +4. (And those are stackable.) But I'm pretty sure there's no +4 bonus for an unexpected angle of attack. That would be pretty bizarre as a bonus to attack rather than a penalty to defend.

That's what I meant. I was thinking of the +4 for AoA, since there's no need to defend if you're attacking from below and behind your foe.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It references Martial Arts p117, which might just be covering those close combat penalties - there's a cat laying on my hands so I can't reach the book right now.

Luckily for me all my books are also in pdf... so if I can access the intrawebs, I can access mine books.

If you've only got Basic and thus don't have access to those penalties, I'd suggest that if the stairwell (or any other corridor) is neither wider nor taller than your weapon's maximum reach, just say no to Swing attacks. Note that narrow stairs can have good overhead clearance.

That's a good off the cuff ruling. I'd allow for half-damage swings if the corridor were between half to full length of the weapon. No swings if it were under half the length of the weapon.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Many years ago, my local SCA group used to put on demos at gaming cons, showing that it is possible to effectively use a two-handed sword, or a dueling glaive, in your stereotypical 10' wide x 10' high corridor, or even your OSHA minimum 3' x 7' high corridor.

One - The SCA isn't 'real' combat. It's Sport versions of the melee skills, which means you aren't doing full power strikes.

Two - You can still thrust with no penalty in a corridor, even under the harsh rules in Martial Arts and Underground Adventures.

[tanksoldier]

In a castles the tower stairs are usually counter clockwise.

This gives a defender, fighting backwards up the stair, more room to swing their weapon and allows them to use the central column for cover... while an attacker is hampered in their swing and has less ability to hide behind the column.

There a,so often is an odd step, higher or lower than the rest. A defender familiar with the stair knows about it, an attacker may not.

One - The SCA isn't 'real' combat. It's Sport versions of the melee skills, which means you aren't doing full power strikes.

...and of course it’s impossible to even attempt full power attacks for demonstration purposes.

Any SCA fighter who picks up a random stick is automatically limited to swinging it half speed, regardless of circumstances. This also makes them poor baseball players.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

In a castles the tower stairs are usually counter clockwise.

I recently saw a video by a medieval fighting expert – I think it was Matt Easton – claiming that the clockwise/counterclockwise design of tower stairs as a tactical consideration is a myth; in actuality, both orientations are common.

BUT... whether that's true or not, I'd make it true in a game world! A scenario involving tower stairs, with some simple rules for how a spiral staircase affects melee, sounds fun.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by tbone

BUT... whether that's true or not, I'd make it true in a game world! A scenario involving tower stairs, with some simple rules for how a spiral staircase affects melee, sounds fun.

The legend is that the Kerr family of Scotland, noted for their unusually high percentage of left-handed fighters, built the staircases in one of their castles in a counterclockwise direction.

If both fighters are right-handed, it makes no difference if you're attacking or defending on a clockwise or counterclockwise (as seen from the bottom) spiral staircase using a sword and shield. In either case, you'll have a wall to protect your non-shielded side (inside for the attack, outside for the defender) while you can deliver overhand, underhand, or reverse-handed blows. The only real limitation is your ability to deliver blows swung in an arc more or less horizontal to the unshielded side of your body. Additionally, low ceiling height will mess with your ability to deliver overhand blows.

If you're a right-handed fighter using a short polearm or spear and right-hand leading stance, the attacker might have a slight disadvantage since more of his back is exposed, which limits his ability to defend. This is easily corrected by reversing stance so that the left hand leads.

In all cases, the big deal when fighting on a clockwise spiral staircase is that a right-handed attacker's stance tends to force him to the inside of the staircase, where the treads are narrower and the risk of tripping is greater. Same thing for a lefty on a counterclockwise staircase.

There's also the issue of familiarity, since there were no building codes for castles. (Other than who could build them and where, and how big they could be. Kings objected, usually violently, if their vassals started erecting unpermitted fortifications . . . especially if they could house an entire army.) If you train to defend staircases in a particular castle, you'll be more familiar with them.

If you want to get all fiddly with rules, assign a -2 penalty for fighting on a spiral staircase, which can be negated with the Surefooted (Spiral Staircase or Uneven) perk. The GM can also require periodic DX rolls, possibly at a penalty, if you're fighting on slippery (i.e., bloody, damp, oily, or slimy) stairs or if you need to clamber over a fallen body.

Finally, many fighters (both right- AND left-handed) aren't used to fighting lefties. Apply a +1 bonus to attacks if you're a lefty fighting an opponent who isn't familiar with fighting lefties, until your foe can make an IQ-based weapon skill roll to adapt. Treat experience fighting all manner of left-handed foes as a Style Familiarity perk.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

One - The SCA isn't 'real' combat. It's Sport versions of the melee skills, which means you aren't doing full power strikes.

While SCA fighters are trained to pull their blows, they ARE capable of launching full-power strikes, and occasionally do so. The bigger problems with the style are the restricted target areas, lack of close-combat or grappling techniques, lack of training in properly parrying "live steel" weapons, and polearms and other mass weapons which can be a bit lighter than their live steel equivalents.

The bigger problem for a fight in a narrow corridor or staircase is the lack of space. Although, if you use a low stance and a low guard, you can deliver a decent vertical strike with a two-handed sword or dueling glaive (i.e., nothing more than about 5' long) the recovery for the next strike or defense will be a problem.

That's why I suggested that Telegraphic or All-Out (Strong) attacks either shouldn't be allowed or should have greater penalties, in such conditions. Or, to make it simpler, rule that any attack made without using a Defensive Grip will take (additional) penalties.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Two - You can still thrust with no penalty in a corridor, even under the harsh rules in Martial Arts and Underground Adventures.

Then RAW are wrong.

If you've got a long "pole weapon" and you've "choked up" on the grip, you'll have a lot of the haft behind you. That "extra" length will get in your way in close quarters.

I'd suggest that you need a horizontal distance of (weapon length + 3') between you and your target, and you and whatever obstacles are behind you, in order to effectively use a polearm or spear in a narrow space. Anything less than that gives you a -3 penalty to hit or to defend per missing foot of distance, assuming the GM allows the attack at all.

If you choke up on the weapon, so that you can strike a nearby opponent, you're effectively assuming a "Defensive Grip." In any case, the minimum space required to use your weapon doesn't change.

If you've got rising ground behind you, like if you're defending a staircase using a spear, you'll have additional problems since the weapon's haft will bang against the ground, limiting your angles of attack and defense against opponents who are at the same height as you are (e.g., fliers, or people thrusting or shooting at you from a balcony that overlooks the stairs). In cases like those, double penalties for lack of space and give a further -3 penalty per yard of ground rise behind you.

For example, if you're using a 12' pike to defend a 15' corridor, you can thrust without problems since you have sufficient clearance behind you. But, if an opponent gets within your guard and you have to choke up by 3' to get the pike point between you and him, you will have a -9 penalty because you've effectively only got 12' of space to maneuver a 12' long weapon.

If you were using the same 12' pike to defend an 18' staircase, you're sufficiently far down the staircase that you're 15' away from your foes, and there is 3' of staircase rise behind you, the same conditions apply, but you have a -3 penalty because of the staircase behind you interfering with your ability to move the weapon.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Then RAW are wrong.

If you've got a long "pole weapon" and you've "choked up" on the grip, you'll have a lot of the haft behind you. That "extra" length will get in your way in close quarters.

You've made a very generous expansion of evileeyore's brief statement. Especially so since 'choking up' on the grip is your own injection to the subject. Weapons, as you surely know, have minimum reach, and there are specific rules (not, by the way, Defensive Grip) if you're looking to employ it at a shorter distance.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I'd suggest that you need a horizontal distance of (weapon length + 3') between you and your target, and you and whatever obstacles are behind you, in order to effectively use a polearm or spear in a narrow space. Anything less than that gives you a -3 penalty to hit or to defend per missing foot of distance, assuming the GM allows the attack at all.

This is, in fact, vaguely reminiscent of the full rules - but not particularly necessary to the discussion that was taking place.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You've made a very generous expansion of evileeyore's brief statement. Especially so since 'choking up' on the grip is your own injection to the subject. Weapons, as you surely know, have minimum reach, and there are specific rules (not, by the way, Defensive Grip) if you're looking to employ it at a shorter distance.

I was just thinking of the hassles I've seen and encountered when using simulated weapons on a narrow staircase or corridor. Minimum Reach doesn't quite do the topic justice.

Depending on the realism level, the GM should make lots of rolls to avoid falling when fighting on a staircase.

And, as to Defensive Grip, I was thinking of it only for use with a 2H-Sword, not a polearm or spear. I'm not sure what you'd call dragging two thirds of the weapon on the ground while trying to attack and parry with the first third - other than a Very Bad Idea or Failure To Plan. You can do it, sort of, but it's far more prudent to retreat and break out a swortsword or dagger.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Then RAW are wrong.

I'd suggest you check out Underground Adventures before you decide any such thing.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I'd suggest you check out Underground Adventures before you decide any such thing.

I will check it out. I'm happy that the rules in Basic Set got revised for fights in confined spaces.