Skarg's Experience Point house rule

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Additionally, can we hold-off on the topic of Disbelieving until we - later down the road - bring-in the topic of magic and IQ, and keep our focus tight?

Sure.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

There are assumptions and factors here, along with a presumed alteration to the existing Combat EP Valuation method provided by TFT:ITL, which I feel should not be included AT THIS TIME in the dialog. Primarily, as we have not fully defined our own baseline yet; and we should refrain from projecting the effect on the sum as a net modifier at this point-in-time - Agreed?

Ok.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Although I have read your whole post in it's entirety, I would like to ask if we can truncate and hold the rest in reserve, so that we can keep the conversation on a point-by-point basis, as we seek out the baseline.

Ok.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

I see where you are heading and with many other prospective rules, while you offer sound rational why you feel a specific talent should be worth X, and another talent is worth Y, I would like to explore another route which may also be available to us in our endeavor.

Ok.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

If you have read my other posts regarding my general philosophy on altering the TFT rules, or creating enhancements to those rules, you know that I am a staunch adherent to working outwards from the established rules as a base, and naturally growing outwards from there - rather than trying to superimpose an external rules-set into a per-existing TFT rule base. I want to reiterate, my highest goal is not to impose my own ideas into the system, but rather to create enhancements to the existing TFT rules, and introducing as little alien material as possible, specifically to preserve, while creating a pastiche of the original rules-set laid-down by SJ.

Ok. I would add that despite all the lines I wrote about it, the house rules I posted are essentially a one-line change plus some notes on how to assess TV (i.e. Combat EP Value). Basically the rule is just that you adjust the ITL EP formula for EP from defeating a figure, by adding/subtracting the difference between the values of the victor and the defeated figure. The rest is just how to calculate that: use adjDX, take into account armor and weapon damage, etc.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Again, withholding discussion of what and why your rules feel a specific talent is worth what it is to the Combat EP Value, can we first look at the values that the TFT:ITL Talents ALREADY offer us as canonical values?

Ok, except I've already thought about it and already explained why that is actually what we chose, except that it doesn't make sense for talents that just avoid a -4DX penalty, which using adjDX already takes into account automatically.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Following that philosophy, the existing TFT Talent rules already inform us of specific values for each and every combat talent available; AND, if we methodically apply those same values - without arbitrary alteration - to the existing Combat EP Value, we would automatically generate the samples as shown below:

As we agree: IQ by itself offers no direct inherent value to the Combat EP Value; therefore, a "No Combat Talent" figure would be rendered as:

ST-12 DX-12 IQ-8
NO COMBAT TALENTS
Combat EP Value: 24

Yes.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

If we give the same figure the knife talent - reflecting the most base degree of weapon skill and proficiency - the figure would be rendered as:

ST-12 DX-12 IQ-8
KNIFE (1)
Combat EP Value: 25

And, if we flesh-out the figure with more training and talents, we get:

ST-12 DX-12 IQ-8
KNIFE/SWORD (2)
BOW (2)
SHIELD (1)
THROWN WEAPONS (2)
Combat EP Value: 31

Not looking so good to me.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

THEREFORE, as a start:

1) Why can't we simply use the listed costs of the combat talents as informed by the existing TFT:ITL rules as the specific values added in calculating the total Independent Combat Value of a given enemy combatant?

Because of what the different talents do, or do not do. As you've read, we do actually end up using the memory points as the point value for combat talents, but only the ones that actually improve a character's fighting ability, and only when they use that ability in the combat you're assigning EP for. Basic weapon talents just let you use your DX without a -4 penalty. That effect is nicely taken into account very accurately by just using the adjDX of the fighter to calculate Combat EP Value instead of their base DX (which has no direct effect on combat - fighting someone with no weapon talent is almost identical to fighting someone with the talent but who has 4 less DX, so why give the value a +2 instead for Ax/Mace talent?

Note that you've also already created a change to the effect of the ITL EP rule, which you said you wanted to change as little as possible. Now if a character with only basic weapon talents fights another, they get more EP than ITL would give, and the character with more basic weapon talents is worth more, even though it doesn't particularally increase how well they'll perform.

i.e.:

Chuck
ST 13 Halberd 2d
DX 11
IQ 8
Pole Weapons (2)
Your Combat EP Value: 26

is going to be valued 6 points (23%) less EP-worthy than:

Vince
ST 13 Halberd 2d
DX 11
IQ 8
Pole Weapons (2)
Ax/Mace (2)
Sword (2)
Shiled (1)
Knife (1)
Your Combat EP Value: 32

Main problem: These characters will usually perform the same, but one's valued more, and/or you have more work to do to adjust for all the talents that don't get used.

Another problem: EP inflation for beginning-point characters.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

2) Would this method generate a simple base system with which to achieve that goal, while working from the established rules base outwards?

Well, you've got me to explain some of the reasons why we didn't do this, and why this is already further from the effect of the ITL rules than the system I posted is. ;-)

I much prefer a starting point where only talents which add something to a character's ability get counted on top of points from attributes. The goal should be to measure actual Threat Value, and not points that do nothing. I submit that counting basic weapon talents as 0, and the effect of using weapons without them by their -4 effect on adjDX, you get a quite accurate effect. It also balances with monsters that have no listed talents, but attack with their DX.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

3) Does this method in any way violate the feel, form, flow, flavor, or function of what makes TFT, TFT?

Yes. To me, the "feel, form, flow, flavor, [and] function of what makes TFT, TFT" to me, is that stuff makes sense and works well. That's why I want to change the ITL EP formula in the first place. This suggestion adds stuff that doesn't make sense and doesn't have reasons for being the way it is, actually making the problem worse by giving more EP, and for things that mostly won't have any effect, and in a way that doesn't balance with monsters who have/need no talents. Thrown Weapons gives +2 adj DX for thrown weapons (so worth a little less than +2 DX for all purposes) but also the fast-draw ability (which is worth at least 1 point), so it's good at about +2. Including basic weapon talents just introduces error and increases EP rewards for nothing.