Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

Yeah, they are obscenely delicious. There was a time, in the dimly remembered past, when Texas was something of a gaming hub. Metagaming, Heritage Miniatures, Martian Metals and of course, SJG. We even had a decent wholesale distributor in Dallas, Southgames. One of the principals was Al Pare of Reaper miniatures fame. (I worked at a local hobby store and handled all gaming and model inventory orders).

Sounds like that must have been a good place to be! It must have been something to work in retail at a shop in those days. Especially with so many people into RPGs at the time during the peak.

After the Marine Corps and college, I entered the casino industry; so at least I was around GAMES all day; and in terms of "Game Design", a Casino is a really just a big "Labyrinth for Profit" of sorts; if you really think about it from an inside perspective.

Speaking of which, back in the day, did you and your TFT buddies ever gamble (you know, .25cents) on your Melee matches in the early days? What a blast THAT was! LOL!

WOW! Remember when TSG, or it could it have been in Interplay,.. (not sure, and wouldn't you know it, my Reference Librarian is on vacation this week - i.e. don't feel like looking it up) when that spot-piece announced that Martian Metals burnt-down, and that would be the end to the TFT MINITURES?

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

This kind of comment is extremely off-putting. It certainly isn't going to be helpful when it comes time to convince new gamers to try TFT. You can have whatever opinions you like about the merits of various RPGs, but you need to express them in ways that aren't derogatory to people who have different views.

As a Charter Member of the Church of Gygax (May His d4s Always Be Pointy), I think that the tongue in cheek nature of the comment was pretty obvious to everyone.

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Sounds like that must have been a good place to be! It must have been something to work in retail at a shop in those days. Especially with so many people into RPGs at the time during the peak.

Well, like every teenager in the 70s-80s I was convinced that I lived in the most backwards place imaginable. Imagine my confusion when I found out that Tyler was considered “the big city” by kids in surrounding small towns...

However, for a good while, we had a toy store that carried a sizeable inventory of AH and SPI games; a hobby store that carried a deep stock of historical and fantasy miniatures, Metagaming stuff, SPI/AH and a fair amount of small press stuff; and another toy store that was sort of in the middle between the other two. And the first two were in a shopping across the street from the mall that contained the third. In those days, Texas had the blue laws so the mall was closed on Sunday. We had at least 3 good sized game conventions on Sundays at the mall. Howard Thompson was a guest at at least one of them.

For a town of 70,000 that wasn’t bad at all.

After the Marine Corps and college, I entered the casino industry; so at least I was around GAMES all day; and in terms of "Game Design", a Casino is a really just a big "Labyrinth for Profit" of sorts; if you really think about it from an inside perspective.

Speaking of which, back in the day, did you and your TFT buddies ever gamble (you know, .25cents) on your Melee matches in the early days? What a blast THAT was! LOL!

We never gambled as I recall. But in the pre-politically correct days, we did heap a shocking amount of verbal abuse on those who failed to win.

WOW! Remember when TSG, or it could it have been in Interplay,.. (not sure, and wouldn't you know it, my Reference Librarian is on vacation this week - i.e. don't feel like looking it up) when that spot-piece announced that Martian Metals burnt-down, and that would be the end to the TFT MINITURES?

Yes, and no more upside down ads. I never could figure out if that was an intentional ad campaign or if it was a layout mistake and they just went with it. Losing Martian Metals really sucked too. Because for a teenager, working a part-time minimum wage job, the Martian Metals 15mm figures were extremely affordable. The Grenadier 25mm AD&D line was somewhat pricey for the time. Minimum wage was about $2.90 an hour (~$2.20 after withholding) so a $15 game product was costly. At least for a kid who also had to buy school clothes and a bit later, gasoline.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

Well, like every teenager in the 70s-80s I was convinced that I lived in the most backwards place imaginable. Imagine my confusion when I found out that Tyler was considered “the big city” by kids in surrounding small towns...

It is so true: Our perception is based on our perspective,... and by the time the big picture came into focus, and I looked up from the Melee Map,... I aged to where I started needing glasses. LOL!

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

we had a toy store that carried a sizeable inventory of AH and SPI games; a hobby store that carried a deep stock of historical and fantasy miniatures, Metagaming stuff, SPI/AH

We always wanted a TFT-version of one of those SPI vaccu-form plastic counter-trays for our TFT counters. I used to use my Grand-Pops old segmented jewellery box for his cuff-links; although the zip-lock baggie were better for security, it offered no protection to the edges of the TFT counters while traveling.

Although with TFT using the original baggies and then, the cardboard boxes, and then lastly, the plastic clam-shells (for SJ Games Pocket-Boxes), were a natural progression of: low production-cost packaging solutions - yet, notice how the material, production, engineering and tooling cost increase over time - I always wished for TFT MICRO's to be packaged a scaled-version of the SPI-style vaccu-form plastic counter-tray with the clear lid packaging - especially with the printed rules-set cover serving as the front-box art through the clear plastic - I thought the SPI packaging-designer was brilliant

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

We never gambled as I recall. But in the pre-politically correct days, we did heap a shocking amount of verbal abuse on those who failed to win.

LOL!!!,... after all, it is properly classified as a: SOCIAL GAMING EXPERIENCE; but that in itself in no way implies a guaranteed, nor defined level of civility and couth is present, or even desirable; depending on what type of experience a group finds as fun.

We didn't have an atmosphere like that with our TFT group interestingly enough - and trust me, were we ALL champion "zinger-artists".

However, 3M's 'Acquire' by Sid Saxon, and Albert Lamorisse's 'Risk', those were the games that came with 3d6 worth of: "Vex & Taunt" - Hey, that sounds like a new game title!! - as part-and-parcel during our play with the other games we also loved.

But in TFT, no; we were so deep in head-space, and so highly focused that I image to an outside observer, we may have resembled a group of Mediums in a Seance'. Also, the fact that we played by candle-lite, huddled together in semi-darkness, and spoke in very low voice - as though we were playing ITL somewhere deep within a ancient labyrinth - served to strengthen the whole mood and atmosphere for us. For a very long time we, as players, were so staunchly committed and into the whole: "If you do it, your character does it; if you say it, your character says it" play-style - that no one wanted with them: soda-pop, chips, radio playing, etc. We were 5 people, who for years, collectively shared and experienced an extremely vivid transcendental supernaut-type experience; but, fueled only with TFT working on our imaginations and through the theatre of our mind's-eye. THAT, right there, was, for our group: THE MAGIC OF THE FANTASY TRIP

I think it was because our heads were collectively SO DEEP into the "Reality of the Fantasy"; that, along with unique ability that TFT had on us to transport us dimensionally into an altered-state-of-consciousness, it REALLY was THE FANTASY TRIP for us. So, everyone's attitude was passionately and sharply focused on "Maintaining the Spell" - and for no other reason.
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[JLV]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

We always wanted a TFT-version of one of those SPI vaccu-form plastic counter-trays for our TFT counters. I used to use my Grand-Pops old segmented jewellery box for his cuff-links; although the zip-lock baggie was better for security, it offered no protection to the edges of the TFT counters while traveling.

Although with TFT using the original baggies and then, the cardboard boxes, and then lastly, the plastic clam-shells (for SJ Games Pocket-Boxes), were a natural progression of: low production-cost packaging solutions - yet, notice how the material, production, engineering and tooling cost increase over time - I always wished for TFT MICRO's to be packaged a scaled-version of the SPI-style vaccu-form plastic counter-tray with the clear lid packaging - especially with the printed rules-set cover serving as the front-box art through the clear plastic - I thought the SPI packaging-designer was brilliant.

Except those SPI plastic boxes fell completely apart just sitting on your storage shelf. I don't believe I ever had one last more than about a year before it started shedding pieces of itself, even if it hadn't been played in a while. I still have some, but they are not doing well. Even SPI recognized that they were simply not up to par and used to routinely mention that they were still looking for a better storage solution until they went tango uniform. I don't know how many times I've had to re-glue the bottoms to the top, and almost every one I own has shards of plastic coming out of the various pockets or from around the edges -- especially the central pockets and the dice storage hole. The only really survivable part has been the *softer* clear plastic lids that fit over the counter trays...and even those have discolored to a lovely gerbil-vomit yellow over the years...

But yes, I totally agree that I wish there were better packaging options available. I know my Ogre garage has held up remarkably well, but it's only what, five or six years old? And I'll bet it was a HELL of a lot more expensive than those old SPI counter trays! Still, maybe Steve will give us something wonderful with the TFT Kickstarter when it goes live!

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by JLV

Except those SPI plastic boxes fell completely apart just sitting on your storage shelf. I don't believe I ever had one last more than about a year before it started shedding pieces of itself, even if it hadn't been played in a while.

This is an excellent point I had forgotten. How would you feel about a Beefed-Up version of the same basic design?
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[JLV]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

This is an excellent point I had forgotten. How would you feel about a Beefed-Up version of the same basic design?
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The DESIGN was an excellent one...the production values, alas... (You know, those plastic trays worked much better when inserted inside the old "Tactical Studies Games" cardboard boxes that they used for a couple of years back in the early 70's -- the cardboard boxes supported the plastic, and THOSE trays held together very well for far longer than the ones that just sat there exposed to...gravity...or whatever it is that did them in. The problem there was the plastic lids didn't work well with the cardboard frames, and if they just put a cardboard flap in place it did absolutely nothing to keep the counters in their trays. So still, bad design.)

So yes, I'd agree it was a good choice. Except, maybe we would need some different sized counter tray slots (I realize they would ALL have to basically be bigger to accommodate the larger counters, which means fewer of them, sadly) for things like 2-hex, 3-hex, 4-hex, 7-hex (hopefully two different types), and, dare I hope for it? 10-hex and 14-hex creatures!!!!! ;-) So maybe we'll need a differently engineered Ogre Garage after all -- a "Monster Lair"? Plus, I assume he still has his heart set on miniatures...

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by Kirk

I'm glad someone noticed! :)

That was the intent from the beginning, but I look to the original creator of TFT to either continue with his ideas or massage others' to ensure a great product worthy of many repeated playings.

I must admit, I've been very pleasantly surprised at the sustained quality of the Dark City modules. Anyone can write a one-hit wonder. But writing so many hits for so long? Impressive.

Tough to choose a favorite.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Jackal

I must admit, I've been very pleasantly surprised at the sustained quality of the Dark City modules. Anyone can write a one-hit wonder. But writing so many hits for so long? Impressive.

Tough to choose a favorite.

Along with so many others also, I think George Dew deserves a special medal for keeping the torch held high.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Along with so many others, I think George Dew deserves a special medal for keeping the torch held high.

Hear, hear.