Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

[sjard]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

For example a Dungeon Fantasy VTT module can have the stats for a Gargoyle popup.

Originally Posted by Gigermann

... and "official support" can result in the third, which is easy enough.

And even without the official support, the example of the Gargoyle isn't particularly hard to input by hand, which is where we're currently at. The biggest part for official support would be convenience vs time and will to do yourself.

Edit: And it's the convenience thing that's the #1 seller for official support.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I suspect the basic answer there is "when someone brings to us a compelling Roll20 demo, we'll give it a go. Brian and Daniel brought us a compelling FG demo, so we allowed for a next step."

Much like with most things, it's fan-driven or not done at all.

Yeah, that is my feeling as well. Also its a lot easier to focus on fewer things than more things and this is a good test of the concept and value to the line.

[Ronnke]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

What "support" means for a VTT is three things.

First and most important is a automated character sheet. You click a button next to skill/power/talent/etc and the software rolls and tells you the result with everything from the sheet correctly applied.

Second are miscellaneous utilities like rolling on a crit chart or a reaction roll result.

Third are rules references to be built into the game. For example a Dungeon Fantasy VTT module can have the stats for a Gargoyle popup.

This is largely already available, but players have to manually input this into their own games and then due to copyright, it can't be distributed. Official support could open the door to have this stuff readily available in libraries. That's the biggest benefit of support I see.

Originally Posted by robertsconley

For Fantasy Grounds this means mastering the custom XML setup they have for setting up ruleset.

Only coders and people that wish to hack their own extensions need to worry about XML/Lua. There are existing library builder tools available for those looking to basically input game data.

[Ronnke]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I suspect the basic answer there is "when someone brings to us a compelling Roll20 demo, we'll give it a go. Brian and Daniel brought us a compelling FG demo, so we allowed for a next step."

Doug, you will also recall from the demo, Kromm did mention one of the strong points to FG was it was peer to peer. You didn't have to rely on another companies platform/server to play, which is something SJG had reservations about.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Ronnke

Doug, you will also recall from the demo, Kromm did mention one of the strong points to FG was it was peer to peer. You didn't have to rely on another companies platform/server to play, which is something SJG had reservations about.

That's one of the great strengths of RPTools. It's Peer-to-Peer with an optional directory service, but also because it's FOSS if they disappear in a puff of smoke one day, I can still send copies to new players, and rebuild against new JAVA versions.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I suspect the basic answer there is "when someone brings to us a compelling Roll20 demo, we'll give it a go. Brian and Daniel brought us a compelling FG demo, so we allowed for a next step."

Much like with most things, it's fan-driven or not done at all.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Ronnke

Doug, you will also recall from the demo, Kromm did mention one of the strong points to FG was it was peer to peer. You didn't have to rely on another companies platform/server to play, which is something SJG had reservations about.

FG requires you to know how to do port forwarding on your router if you are going to referee a campaign. The peer to peer sounds great and all until it hits the reality of a myriad range of devices and technical skills.

But again I will stress that this one quirk out of many that both Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds have. Overall they are running neck to neck in the market.

And the issues of server based versus peer to paper are irrelevant as far as the business side goes. Both Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds function as digital stores for VTT addons like the OBS site does for PDF. The core VTT is just the center of an array of products both offer. If the VTT company goes under so does their store.

Granted Fantasy Grounds as a peer to peer tool can live on but the prime source of revenue and distribution will be gone if Smiteworks goes under. For FG it use as a VTT tool only lives on if you only purchased it outright and not as a subscription.

This a very different situation than it was five years ago when it was just the core VTTs and what fans made. These stores and the ability of third parties to make money are what driving Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds to pull far ahead of their other rivals. And unlike other segments of the industry both publish hard numbers of their user base.

Ultimately SJ Games will have to decide whether it worth getting GURPS into these stores.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

Ultimately SJ Games will have to decide whether it worth getting GURPS into these stores.

I hope they go with both. And I hope that maybe SJGames is a bit more proactive...so that rather than a "we don't really approach anyone for business we wait for them to come to us" they go a bit more with a, "these are the major two VTTs on the market, we should talk to both of them."

[Propjock]

As someone whose run a fair number of games on Roll20 both with paid and free access there's a lot of not-quite-right facts in this thread. I encourage you to look into the system and try it out before making any final decisions.

If I had a steady long term group I'd look at FG first. Roll20's tools have a lot of potential, but years later still feels rough around the edges. The built in WebRTC video/audio is hit/miss and most of the community runs Skype or Discord for comms. Roll20 overall are the definition of good enough in many (most?) gaming cases.

However, at >75% of my gaming is done on online these days (the remaining being a very sporadic f2f group) and it's because of Roll20. I have yet to find a comparably active community as far as number and diversity (ok this is admittedly very PF/D&D centric, but that's a reflection of the hobby) of games being run. I've GM'd several games and each time at least 50% of my applicants are new to the game (i.e. GURPS) or TTRPG hobby. The further you go away from D&D the truer this seems to get. This isn't entirely anecdotal either. You can look at the public LFG forums and get the same feel.

These players, new to the hobby or the system (sometimes both), look to the character sheets to guide them. They like to be able to press the dice button by their skill to make the roll. These players usually don't start by engaging with the mechanics and rules like we do on this forum. Not having a good GURPS character sheet on Roll20 makes it harder for GMs to help players get started. The existing Roll20 GURPS sheets are unfortunately not great. I've actually had a player refuse to use the sheets and just go pen/paper they were such a mess.

The lesson here is that not having even a good character sheet (i.e. minimum VTT support) on Roll20 is a negative to the GURPS image. You get a sense that this is a clunky mess of a system that's overwhelming and needs fighting.

You're not going to be able to build GCA in Roll20. There's just not enough of an API to do that. There's a lot of linked mathematics in GURPS that could be incorporated, but don't have to be to start. It's where I think a lot of these sheets get into trouble because it's complicated and debugging is a time consuming process.

But not having the ability to recreate GCA means you're also freed from the expectations from doing so. When we're talking about limited resources this is a blessing. You can do a very good MVP (minimal viable product) in a character sheet quickly with basic 3D6 skill rolling and satisfy a big swath of the GM/player needs. Let the community build on that core if they really want to see something more, but lay the foundation!

[JMason]

Originally Posted by Propjock

These players, new to the hobby or the system (sometimes both), look to the character sheets to guide them. They like to be able to press the dice button by their skill to make the roll. These players usually don't start by engaging with the mechanics and rules like we do on this forum. Not having a good GURPS character sheet on Roll20 makes it harder for GMs to help players get started. The existing Roll20 GURPS sheets are unfortunately not great. I've actually had a player refuse to use the sheets and just go pen/paper they were such a mess.

The lesson here is that not having even a good character sheet (i.e. minimum VTT support) on Roll20 is a negative to the GURPS image. You get a sense that this is a clunky mess of a system that's overwhelming and needs fighting.

In the last year I updated the GURPS character sheet (type 1) for Roll20 to have it add up values for repeating sections, calculate weight and encumbrance level, adjust ST based on damage and fatigue, added a grimoire page, and several other options.

Each skill and attribute does have a die icon next to them so they can be rolled, and there are options for adding detailed or basic modifiers to each roll. And IIRC that is how it worked before I made any updates.

What other features are you looking for to make this sheet better?