[DF] Question about "You All Meet at an Inn" [Pyramid 98]

[ZmbeHntr]

Originally Posted by Tinman

Yeah, it is.
The entire point of the whole adventure is to give a reason to the party becoming a cohesive whole. The entire intro text explains that, as well as the name of the adventure.

That doesn't mean the individual adventurers are beginning level at [250] points. Go read the text again. Sheesh. Why so confrontational? The blue box labeled with a big N mentions experienced groups.

[genin]

Okay, interesting point about the possibility of multiple characters heading down the well at once (assuming they have enough rope...). A few considerations, though: while the map of the dungeon level does seem to indicate that there's enough room for multiple characters (there are ~3 partial hexes -- I suppose it depends on how merciful the GM is feeling), however on the map of the ground level the well is even smaller (only one hex in size). Regardless, that's a reasonable point, as Basic Set states that up to 4 SM=0 characters can fit into a single hex if they're friendly. On the other hand, that's for standing and, having done a little climbing in real life, I suspect that climbing should be a "full hex activity."

Regarding your other point, I'm not sure that characters can rally at the bottom of the well and wait for the party to congregate. The entrance to the dungeon is not at the bottom of the well, so characters have to either literally "hang out" at the end of their rope, swing into the dungeon, or splash down into the water and then hope they can get back up to the dungeon once the party is ready. No, I think it's most practical for the party to enter the dungeon as they arrive at the entrance.

Okay, so most parties will have a cleric with a holy symbol, so that's a fair point. Even so, this doesn't destroy the Toxifiers, right? They're just going to follow the party around and harass any character that gets more than 5 yards away from the cleric. Also, until they get the door open, the Toxifier(s) can barely be more than 5 yards from the centre of the room, and their attack is passive so it will still emanate 2 yards around them. If the adventurers want to douse the torches to keep more Toxifiers from showing up, they'll either need to expose themselves to the attack, or carefully stay within 5 yards of the cleric while the cleric moves methodically from one torch to the next (meanwhile several more Toxifiers are likely to spawn, which can then harass the party.

Anyone with air magic can do double damage to the Toxifiers. Area effect spells are also effective. But they're still unkillable without magic weapons, meaning beating them down to -10HP, taking 1d toxic damage each turn (while dealing with the Flame Lord, no less), directly after a choke point in the form of the well. Even a cleric Banishing or Exorcising them would run into trouble against a Will of 16 (and Exorcism would take a long time!)

This doesn't seem like an easy scenario to me!

In any event, so it seems like the best bet to take on the Toxifier(s) is to send down a caster first (either cleric or elementalist or demonologist). Since most parties are going to send a fighter and/or thief down a dark hole and keep their squishy casters in the back until a beachhead has been established, I'm thinking that the non-casters are going to get thoroughly toxified before the casters get there.

Yes, the adventure is designed to scale with overall party power. And some GM's may start at point values other than 250 (I like 300, personally). However, this adventure is explicitly written to be a party's first adventure together. Quite possibly for players who are new to the system and/or new to role playing. Meaning that, at the very least, in my opinion, it should be relatively straightforward to win, and shouldn't rely on super clever tactics or even tactics contrary to best practice like sending your casters first down a dark hole.

The other scenarios and monsters all make sense to me. They're challenging but winnable. (The phase serpents can also be quite lethal, I expect, particularly if the party doesn't figure out how to drain the water, but it's winnable). But having a monster that all but requires a magic weapon to defeat and having a potentially infinite number of them spawn every 10 seconds... Especially when there's no running away from the adventure due to the infinite zombies outside... That hardly seems fitting for a first adventure.

I mean, imagine the first person down is a warrior. They're non-too-bright. Maybe they take out the Flame Lord and meanwhile a second Toxifier spawns. Now they try to hack the things apart while waiting the 50 seconds for their backup to arrive. They don't have Hidden Lore (Demons), so they likely have no idea how to handle this monster. It might even take them a while to realize that their blows are having little effect. And, likely having an IQ of 10 or less, they may not put together the fact that they need to douse the torches to stop the spawning (maybe I just need to kill one Toxifier per torch then they're done... it would take seven Toxifiers to disprove this theory). Anyway, imagine that a few too many Toxifiers end up spawning and the warrior decides to retreat. Now the party is in a tough spot!!! They can't run away through the infinite zombies, and there's now a crowd of angry Toxofiers milling about in the dungeon entrance (an unmerciful GM will have them keep spawning, even when no adventurers are in sight).

I'm thinking that I'd either make these Toxifiers easier (remove unkillable), substitute an easier monster, or remove them entirely.

I wonder how the play-testers handled it???

Anyone else have other ideas on how to handle this scenario?

[ZmbeHntr]

Originally Posted by genin

Okay, interesting point about the possibility of multiple characters heading down the well at once (assuming they have enough rope...). A few considerations, though: while the map of the dungeon level does seem to indicate that there's enough room for multiple characters (there are ~3 partial hexes -- I suppose it depends on how merciful the GM is feeling), however on the map of the ground level the well is even smaller (only one hex in size). Regardless, that's a reasonable point, as Basic Set states that up to 4 SM=0 characters can fit into a single hex if they're friendly. On the other hand, that's for standing and, having done a little climbing in real life, I suspect that climbing should be a "full hex activity."

GURPS doesn't always mesh with real life perfectly. Besides, the point of the game is to have fun and bogging down the game with tons of little details other than some basic Climbing rolls seems counter Dungeon Fantasy.

Regarding your other point, I'm not sure that characters can rally at the bottom of the well and wait for the party to congregate. The entrance to the dungeon is not at the bottom of the well, so characters have to either literally "hang out" at the end of their rope, swing into the dungeon, or splash down into the water and then hope they can get back up to the dungeon once the party is ready. No, I think it's most practical for the party to enter the dungeon as they arrive at the entrance.

Depends on the GM. Some may say touching the ledge at the bottom counts as entering the room, but I would think you would actually need to go almost the full way to the brazier to have it count. Just looking inside shouldn't summon the Flame Lord.

Okay, so most parties will have a cleric with a holy symbol, so that's a fair point. Even so, this doesn't destroy the Toxifiers, right? They're just going to follow the party around and harass any character that gets more than 5 yards away from the cleric. Also, until they get the door open, the Toxifier(s) can barely be more than 5 yards from the centre of the room, and their attack is passive so it will still emanate 2 yards around them. If the adventurers want to douse the torches to keep more Toxifiers from showing up, they'll either need to expose themselves to the attack, or carefully stay within 5 yards of the cleric while the cleric moves methodically from one torch to the next (meanwhile several more Toxifiers are likely to spawn, which can then harass the party.

Dread means they have to move as far away as possible if they can't actually reach their 5 yards. I think being 2 yards away from them will be easily managed in that room. Dousing the torches is not going to take all that long. Smashing them off the wall and throwing them in the well would probably be a two-turn endeavor.

Anyone with air magic can do double damage to the Toxifiers. Area effect spells are also effective. But they're still unkillable without magic weapons, meaning beating them down to -10HP, taking 1d toxic damage each turn (while dealing with the Flame Lord, no less), directly after a choke point in the form of the well. Even a cleric Banishing or Exorcising them would run into trouble against a Will of 16 (and Exorcism would take a long time!)

Magic weapons like a wizard staff? That is fairly cheap. They could also just use the magic weapon found later in the dungeon. Reach 2 weapons should be able to hit them without exposing the attacker much, if at all.

This doesn't seem like an easy scenario to me!

Easy isn't fun! DF characters are not meant to be Level 1 beginners. They are meant to be quite competent. If the players are brand new to role-playing, then the GM might have to be nice and give some hints along the way.

In any event, so it seems like the best bet to take on the Toxifier(s) is to send down a caster first (either cleric or elementalist or demonologist). Since most parties are going to send a fighter and/or thief down a dark hole and keep their squishy casters in the back until a beachhead has been established, I'm thinking that the non-casters are going to get thoroughly toxified before the casters get there.

I think most GM's are going to assume everyone can go in together. I think a Mystic Knight/Archer would also make the situation really easy.

The other scenarios and monsters all make sense to me. They're challenging but winnable. (The phase serpents can also be quite lethal, I expect, particularly if the party doesn't figure out how to drain the water, but it's winnable). But having a monster that all but requires a magic weapon to defeat and having a potentially infinite number of them spawn every 10 seconds... Especially when there's no running away from the adventure due to the infinite zombies outside... That hardly seems fitting for a first adventure.

So change it if you think it is too hard. I think there are plenty of ways to deal with the toxifiers as is, especially if you have a standard party dynamic like knight-thief-wizard-cleric.

I mean, imagine the first person down is a warrior. They're non-too-bright. Maybe they take out the Flame Lord and meanwhile a second Toxifier spawns. Now they try to hack the things apart while waiting the 50 seconds for their backup to arrive. They don't have Hidden Lore (Demons), so they likely have no idea how to handle this monster. It might even take them a while to realize that their blows are having little effect. And, likely having an IQ of 10 or less, they may not put together the fact that they need to douse the torches to stop the spawning (maybe I just need to kill one Toxifier per torch then they're done... it would take seven Toxifiers to disprove this theory). Anyway, imagine that a few too many Toxifiers end up spawning and the warrior decides to retreat. Now the party is in a tough spot!!! They can't run away through the infinite zombies, and there's now a crowd of angry Toxofiers milling about in the dungeon entrance (an unmerciful GM will have them keep spawning, even when no adventurers are in sight).

So kill off the one person who jumps in. Don't play with a GM that would refuse to reset it because one person went off on their own. This seems more like you are trying to deal with every possible negative situation a GM could come up with, but the goal is for the GM to make the situation fun even if it is challenging.

I'm thinking that I'd either make these Toxifiers easier (remove unkillable), substitute an easier monster, or remove them entirely.

There is nothing stopping you from changing it how you see fit. However, I think that if you were running this as the GM then you would be surprised at how creative players can get. Now, that assumes this isn't the players' first RPG rodeo. If it is, then there are definitely easier games out there to get their teeth wet.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by ZmbeHntr

Magic weapons like a wizard staff?

A wizard's Staff isn't a magic weapon.

Easy isn't fun!

Remember in DF, Losing Is !!FUN!!

[Tom H.]

genin,

I don't have the Pyramid in question, but I enjoyed reading your critique.

I can't comment on the encounter, but it is important to me that adventures and scenarios are plausible and have been thought through. So I like these kinds of discussions.

[ZmbeHntr]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

A wizard's Staff isn't a magic weapon.

That sounds like a whole new thread on if enchanted items used as a weapon would be considered magic weapons.

If you make a party with no defense against incoporeal or diffuse foes, you probably shouldn't be surprised if you do poorly against them. This is a thing I try to point out when I see it. At least hire a guy with True Faith and Affect Spirits.

There probably are at least a dozen spells and abilities that work well against Toxicifers, all you need is one of them.

Hopefully if the GM was running this adventure for a group new to DF entirely, there would be some check to make sure at least one player had a way to deal with these enemies. Still, these are hardly rare enemy abilities to encounter and should be planned for.

A rather important thing to remember about Unkillable: it does not include immunity to consciousness checks, and a Toxifer has HT 10 (and probably is classed as a Worthy, not a Boss). Do 10 damage to it and it's going down. It has a Dodge of 10, so half of attacks miss, but there's no reason not to all-out attack against them (their attack doesn't allow an active defense anyway) so any starting character should be hitting an average of at least once per round for 2 damage. Or you can use an area spell that will ignore diffuse.

However, 'get rid of the monster generator' and 'figure out how to not send characters one at a time into a woodchipper' are pretty basic DF skills.

That is interesting to note about worthy monsters. Assuming the GM is using those rules, how would Unkillable and Worthy interact?

Those basic skills you mention tend to be more "break anything that looks suspicious" and "never split up the party" in the games I play in, but the point remains the same. :D

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ZmbeHntr

That is interesting to note about worthy monsters. Assuming the GM is using those rules, how would Unkillable and Worthy interact?

They don't. Worthy monsters aren't dead at 0 HP, they're out of the fight. It doesn't terribly matter, though, if you don't use those rules it means on average they get one additional attack after being reduced to 0 HP.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

A wizard's Staff isn't a magic weapon.

Hmm, is that an actual rule; does a weapon have to have a weapon enchantment to be considered a magic weapon?

As I see it, if it's a weapon (a staff is) and it has an enchantment (Staff is one) then it's an enchanted (magic) weapon. In almost 30 years of gurpsing, it never ocurred to me that a Staff was not a magic weapon.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by ZmbeHntr

That sounds like a whole new thread on if enchanted items used as a weapon would be considered magic weapons

Originally Posted by corwyn

Hmm, is that an actual rule; does a weapon have to have a weapon enchantment to be considered a magic weapon?

Huh. In 30 years of GURPS I've never know a GM who considered a Wizard Staff a "magic weapon" for 'magic weapon' purposes.

I've never thought about it because I've never had creatures that required or were susceptible to 'magic weapons'. I always thought it was a terrible concept in D&D and refused to 'port it over'.

[Bruno]

A little more about our group and how they handled it.

I am a long-experienced player, both of GURPS and dungeon crawling in general in various systems; being a general "ringer", my job was to mostly provide a warm body, while helping the GM gently introduce new mechanics or ideas.

The rest of the group were people who had played MMOs, and one referred to attacks of opportunity so they'd obviously played some recent D&D.

The GM clearly decided that the toxifiers come out if you poke the door, not just 'whenever', I'm not sure what the intent was with the flame lord because the barbarian was amusing. The barb was first at the bottom of the well due to gravity, and went straight in to kick the brazier. The rest of us were most of the way down the well by the time the barb fell down, so this didn't actually separate the party much.

I'll note that the rest of the party, including the definitely-never-played-tabletop players, had already caught on to Never Split The Party and were yelling at the barbarian to STAY. STAY. GOOD BOY. Didn't work.

The flame lord came out, and I don't know if it was just "walked in the room" or "kicked the brazier" that did it, but the Barbarian's first reaction was to say "Hello!" to it. The druid, making their Hidden Lore check, immediately backed the Barb up with a "Hello oh great one" kind of intervention, and the rest of the party caught on that Flame Lords have an ego problem and also groveled and simpered.

The GM rolled a random reaction, and got good enough that the Flame Lord was willing to suspend the BURN EVERYTHING to get more bowing and scraping. We then negotiated with it, eventually bargaining to release it in exchange for some information about the dungeon and a promise to go straight back where it came from without setting anything or anyone on fire until it got there (that was the best deal we could manage).

It didn't warn us about the toxifiers specifically, but it did warn us that the door was "trapped" and that there were demons and definitely other monsters. We couldn't find "the trap on the door" and in the grand tradition of delvers everywhere, got the barbarian to open it because he had the most HP (even after falling down the well, he didn't fall all the way from the top).

Then the toxifiers came out, and nobody needed it suggested that we need to break the torches. MMOs are excellent training for the idea of monster spawners. We had a druid and a wizard and between the two of them the toxifiers were dispatched rapidly while the rest of us smashed torches before too many appeared. Even if we hadn't had the magic, we only ended up with two, and that's managable.

I honestly think players who have played video games in the general fantasy-combaty-dungeony genre won't need that part explained.