[Spaceships] Are spaceships unrealistically cheap?

[LordMunchkin]

A bunch of things in Spaceships are questionable upon closer examination (open spaces, I spit at thee with my dying breath). However, you have to remember that the series as a whole was designed to be easy to understand and use. It functions fine if you want to run a standard TL 11 space opera game. Well, mostly functions fine...

As for spaceship prices, I usually increase them by an order of magnitude. While this make me happier as a GM, it has the side effect of pushing all but the smallest tramp freighters out of the reach of non-multimillionaire PCs.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by LordMunchkin

A bunch of things in Spaceships are questionable upon closer examination (open spaces, I spit at thee with my dying breath).

Tell me more.

Originally Posted by LordMunchkin

As for spaceship prices, I usually increase them by an order of magnitude. While this make me happier as a GM, it has the side effect of pushing all but the smallest tramp freighters out of the reach of non-multimillionaire PCs.

It pushes even the smallest tramp freighters (as opposed to shuttles) out of reach of PCs who aren't Wealth-heavy. No struggling bands of merry spacers. In fact that's a concern even without the cost increase relative to the official values.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It pushes even the smallest tramp freighters (as opposed to shuttles) out of reach of PCs who aren't Wealth-heavy. No struggling bands of merry spacers. In fact that's a concern even without the cost increase relative to the official values.

I try and deal with this (standard prices) by pushing for more SM+7 designs. Spaceships suffers from a Travelleresque size inflation (I write this from my 20 dTon/SM+5 dwelling place).

As I look at individual components I see more things that look arbitrarily expensive than too cheap. Higher tech always costs more than lower tech and even superscience costs more than hard science. Nothing ever really lowers costs. That in particular looks odd to me. It's probably more of a concern about regular progressions than anything else.

But no, I'd never arbitrarily bump up prices. They're too high for some sub-genres already. With Ve2 I've happily produced $1 million (new) PC-level ships (and they were half that used) and called it close enough to Star Wars 25k credit "stock light freighter" but with Spaceships I'm frequently frustrated trying to stay under 10 million.

I have mulled over a broad principle that would be called "Cheap Ultra-Tech" or CUT that would simply lower process of many UT personal items (like guns)by a factor of 10 and vehicle prices (or at least ^ components) by a factpr of 100.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Tell me more.

Uh, there is such a laundry list there...

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

As I look at individual components I see more things that look arbitrarily expensive than too cheap. Higher tech always costs more than lower tech and even superscience costs more than hard science. Nothing ever really lowers costs. That in particular looks odd to me. It's probably more of a concern about regular progressions than anything else.

Remember (A) higher TLs are richer than lower TLs - if the price doesn't go up by a factor of the 6th root of 10 per TL it's getting cheaper relative to income and wealth, and (B) higher TL improves many spaceship systems' performance at no added cost.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Remember (A) higher TLs are richer than lower TLs - if the price doesn't go up by a factor of the 6th root of 10 per TL it's getting cheaper relative to income and wealth,

TL8 is much richer than TL5 but that doesn't make a carriage (with horses) a practical budget option compared to motor vehicles.

Sometimes technology advances and lower tech simply becomes obsolete not only in performance but in cost. Spaceships avoids this in a sometimes artificial way.

[ericthered]

Open space is an odd one because it gives a firm area to mass ratio for "open space". This would make sense if the main weight concern was atmosphere, but its not. It also adds areas slower than it gains mass, which is kind of the reverse of what you would expect.

Easier to tinker with is that it gives the same cost and mass for all types of open space, from hydroponics to gardens to what amounts to a mosh pit. Which isn't terribly bad when you consider what the book is typically used for, but it hasn't been expanded upon.

One open space can provide food "sufficient for the entire vessel". That's terribly vague and doesn't change with tech level, intensity of the farming, or the population of the vessel. The most extreme case has a single open space feeding a ship made half of passenger seating, or 600 people. They can't all stand there (by the explicit rules, which gives each of the 100 people just over 20 square feet), but they can eat from it! A fairer analysis is using 8 full habitats, which means one area can feed either 48 people if you only allow for the nice cabins, or for for 192 if we use bunk rooms: once again more people than can meet in it by RAW.

This system also makes sense to be included in a bunch of habitat specific rules, but isn't, at least explicitly.

I'm wondering if there is space to expand these rules. hmm.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by ericthered

.
I'm wondering if there is space to expand these rules. hmm.

Wonder if there's _interest_ enough before you do it for Pyramid. Open spaces are one of the things that have already been included for the sake of completeness rather than their frequency of use..

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Wonder if there's _interest_ enough before you do it for Pyramid. Open spaces are one of the things that have already been included for the sake of completeness rather than their frequency of use..

No worries. I'm a blogger and tinkerer, not a pyramid publisher.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

TL8 is much richer than TL5 but that doesn't make a carriage (with horses) a practical budget option compared to motor vehicles.

Sometimes technology advances and lower tech simply becomes obsolete not only in performance but in cost. Spaceships avoids this in a sometimes artificial way.

That's not Spaceships, that's GURPS in general - if you just use the list prices a carriage would be a dirt-cheap budget alternative to a car at TL8. There are some loose suggestions about adjusting the pricing for obsolete goods depending on whether they're still in production, out of production but being sold to clear inventories, or only available from collections or by special order...but they're loose suggestions and don't even try to account for changes in factors of production.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That's not Spaceships, that's GURPS in general - if you just use the list prices a carriage would be a dirt-cheap budget alternative to a car at TL8. .

That depends on your definition of "dirt cheap".

For the TL5 Stagecoach in HT the $4400 price obviously does not include the horses. If you allow for the multiple teams of draft horses you'd need for a full day's travel the entire rig is probably more expensive than a comparably uncomfortable minivan (and you probably couldn't sell a minivan as uncomfortable as a stagecoach).