Low Tech – How to play a frontal clash between two phalanxes (Hoplites, Shield Wall)

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by acrosome

With Mass Combat. :)

Well, the idea is to use both individual and mass combat rules. Individual for the formation where the PCs are, Mass Combat for the others.

Originally Posted by LowManaMovieMagic

Based on the description given here, it sounds like after a few seconds of opportunistic stabbing it turns into a contest of strength, with each shield bearing soldier being assisted by at least one back ranked soldier and opposed by the soldiers on the other side of the shield wall.

If your PC is the one holding the shield, maybe focus on fatigue loss from the extended push/resist push actions. I think there's a side column somewhere called "lending a hand" that talks about multiple characters doing combined feats of strength.

My greatest doubt is how to play the push/resist push, and in fact how to combine the strength of PCs and NPCs and how to assign bonus and malus based on equipment. And the effects in case of being defeated in the ST-based push context, and the possibility of made an attack (perhaps with an appropriate malus) while pushing.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

As you say the front rank will be susceptible from attacks from the opposing two ranks (possibly three ranks)..

OK so my assumption is any disciplined formations of Hoplites will have both the team tactics and shield wall perks*

So your front rank will fight defensively with defensive attacks or even AoA Defence, utilising the shield wall perk to cover each other if needed.

Your 2nd rank can be more aggressive, being covered by both the front rank's ability to protect them via the team work perk, and the penalty for attacks going though enemy occupied hexes. If they need more the 2nd ranks will also benefit from the their own shield wall perks.


Now the team work perks also adds more benefit

1), your getting benefits in your front rank for bracing and shield shoves

2). your 2nd rank can feint and your front rank can take advantage of it.

3). because team work means you can freely adjust your teams order in your teams turn you can mix up your different team members tactics by adjusting the order they go in.



On the 3rd+ ranks and helping with bracing/shoving etc if you want to you could allow them each add a their teamwork bonus to bracing and shoving if every one in front of them also braces and shoves. (maybe up to set number of ranks, or a leveled perk that increases the number of ranks that can be added in*)


I'm not too sure about how the reverse grip rules and long Spear interact. Being in shield wall does kind of mean overarm grips, but I'm not convinced about all the knock on effects of that here.


So this kind of formation does potentially have a lot of attacks going on like you say, but it is also potentially a very defensive one as well.



*and ones that don't will do badly against the ones that do, but well that's the benefit of training in specialised combat tactics


**or maybe they can give some bonus to the shield shoves in another way

1) I agree. Both the perks seem an obligate choice for trained soldiers.

2) Could Defensive Attack be combined with pushing?

3) Regarding Long Spear and Reversed Grip, is clear that a Long Spear can be used in this way (even the two-handed kontos was often used overarm), even if Martial Arts rules say that a Reach 3 weapon couldn't be used overarm because it would be awkward.

4) The last question is: the role of shortswords and axes, and if they're a good choice for the first rank even if they haven't broken their spears. Axes can be used to hook enemy shields, so basically the front ranks hook and the rear rank stab, while long knifes (historical shortswords) can be used in close combat, but I don't know how much those tactics make sense, both in game and in a real context.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Rasna

1) I agree. Both the perks seem an obligate choice for trained soldiers.

yep

Originally Posted by Rasna

2) Could Defensive Attack be combined with pushing?

I don't see why not, I do it under shoves with weapons (MApg112), and as I said I'd consider a levelled perk that allowed more than one rank to add their teamwork bonus to shoves (if everyone in line was shoving)

In fact given there's a push kick technique that's basically a shove, I'd also probably consider a shield based shove technique as well, that would probably be well suited to Hoplites.

Originally Posted by Rasna

3) Regarding Long Spear and Reversed Grip, is clear that a Long Spear can be used in this way (even the two-handed kontos was often used overarm), even if Martial Arts rules say that a Reach 3 weapon couldn't be used overarm because it would be awkward.

I pretty much agree, I think l'd just say you use it overarm but not give the benefit or negatives of doing so i.e no extra Thr damage, no reduction in reach

Originally Posted by Rasna

4) The last question is: the role of shortswords and axes, and if they're a good choice for the first rank even if they haven't broken their spears. Axes can be used to hook enemy shields, so basically the front ranks hook and the rear rank stab, while long knifes (historical shortswords) can be used in close combat, but I don't know how much those tactics make sense, both in game and in a real context.

I think axes will end up at slight disadvantages as Swung reach 1 weapons (I think you'll risk ending up in C reach alot) So nice thrusting C or C,1 weapons will be better.


Problem with hooking hoplite shields here is not only is Hook hard (default skill-5 and then another -2 for a DB2 shield) they're likely to be strapped which means you are a disadvantage in the QC for the effect even if you hit.

And of course they can defend against the initial hook (and so can their mates with shield wall perk on either side). However the attacking weapons rules are bit odd here as you can parry an attempt to attack you weapon but you can't block and attempt to attack you shield. I'd probably allow shields to try and block a hook attempt on it. But then Hook is hard enough as it is not sure it needs any more disincentive

(EDIT I should say hook and disarm doesn't come a lot in my games so I may be getting some of this wrong)



a quick point if both front ranks end up in Close Combat their shields are going to stat causing issues for them, I might consider a perk that allows you buy off a bit of the shield in CC penalty.