Pyramid #3/104: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game

[Dalin]

All your sandbox are belong to us.

[Humabout]

Fwiw, just hearing "The Sandbox Is a Lie" as something in Pyramid has pretty much disuaded me from placing this issue in my wishlist. I don't ascribe to meme culture, and it comes off as telling me that my prefered game style is wrong. My knee-jerk reaction isn't as severe as Rasputin's, but I will use my spending to express my displeasure nonetheless.

All of that said, the descriptions I've read so far seem to indicate that it's just the same subject matter that's presented on at least a dozen blogs from The Angry GM to our own Peter Dell'Orto's Dungeon Fantastic. That just leaves tables for randomly generating quests, which TheCollaborativeGamer is already doing on his blog - not to mention tables dating back to d20SRD and far older still. Basically, I can't see any value or original ideas that could be added by this article, and the suggestion that sandbox gaming is in any way substabdard or wrong just drives me away from Pyramid in general.

Some of the other articles sound ok, but the distaste engendered by It's a Quest is more than ample to leave an overall bad taste in my mouth.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Humabout

Fwiw, just hearing "The Sandbox Is a Lie" as something in Pyramid has pretty much disuaded me from placing this issue in my wishlist. I don't ascribe to meme culture, and it comes off as telling me that my prefered game style is wrong. My knee-jerk reaction isn't as severe as Rasputin's, but I will use my spending to express my displeasure nonetheless.



Some of the other articles sound ok, but the distaste engendered by It's a Quest is more than ample to leave an overall bad taste in my mouth.

Its not a your way is wrong so much as "there are no absolutes" at least how I took it. I did not know the meme.
I think it was more a joke title, not quite an attempt at irony and I would not let it ruin the article much less the issue for me.
Making a good joke is tough, I wont fault someone for trying and coming up short.

[safisher]

The Sandbox is a Lie is a offensive? Really? So offensive people won't read the ISSUE or even all of Pyramid? I can't see how anyone could find any of this in this article.

Here, judge for yourself. Here's the actual approach:
"So how can you give your players a “sandbox” feeling without spending all your free time creating things you might never use?"
And then he goes about explaining how to make a sandbox game manageable for a GM who doesn't have a lot of game prep time. It's solid GMing advice, meme or not. There is nothing grating or offensive there in the least. The Quest Generator was a nice starting point for creating quests, too.

I enjoyed this issue. It had a lot of meat to it. I like background generators, and this one by David Pulver is not only very good for DF but easy to mod if you want; I'd copy and past various table and customize them for my gameworld. The nice part is the game rules advice sprinkled in, and a worked example.

The solo adventure by Stephen Marsh is outstanding, and just the ticket for handing to new gamers as a way to explain tabletop gaming and GURPS. It REALLY does need to be a separate, perhaps FREE, game aid. I'd love to see a series of them in various Pyramid genre issues (space, historicals, etc.). Also, cram a copy into the DF box, for photocopying or printing off for your new players.

[JMason]

Just finished my read through and here are a few thoughts:

• I almost never read Pyramid cover to cover. I've read a few "completely" but it tends to be over a period of days (or weeks... or months) and I tend to skip around. But I consumed this issue. Solid all the way.
  
• Trapped in the Living Tomb - 5 stars! I love solo adventures as intros (have ever sense All in a Night's Work). Great fun, and would love to see more!
  
• It's a Quest! - This was interesting. At first I thought this was not a system I'd be interested in... as I sort of do this "automatically" ... but after finishing it I'm thinking I might give it a try.
  
• Heroic Background Generator - I love this. I've been thinking for awhile that I wanted some sort of "life path" system for GUPRS, but didn't want it to take all the choice from players. This is a great system for creating a background that can inform character creation (template or completely free), without replacing it! Going to "roll up" some NPCs using this, for sure!
  
• The State of the Dungeon - TBH, this felt a bit like filler to me. That's probably b/c I try to keep track of every bit of new info on the DFRPG as it arrives... so not a lot of surprises here (for me).
  
• Preparing for the Hero's Journey - Well, this is just good advice. Not much more to say about it.
  

[PK]

I'm honestly confused, because the words "the sandbox is a lie" don't translate to "people cannot enjoy sandbox play" -- at least, not in any way that I can possibly see. Can someone explain where the insult is?

In fact, is there anything -- anything at all -- in the actual content of that section that disparages sandbox play or insults those who use it? Because I've reread it multiple times now and I don't see it, so if I'm missing something, I genuinely want to know. In fact, everything there looks like advice on how to run a campaign that feels like a sandbox even if the GM doesn't have the time to craft a thousand plot hooks in advance.

When I reviewed this article, I read "the sandbox is a lie" as shorthand for "how to fool your players into thinking the game is sandbox when you actually have it planned out." And I'm pretty darn sure that's how Christopher intended it. It's a section about making sure your players feel like they have free reign to go anywhere, without actually having to first map out every single plot hook of your game world.

[dripton]

I'm a sandbox gamer at heart too, but I don't have a problem with the title. It's a joke, guys.

Also, everyone who likes video games at all should really try Portal. A fantastic little 3D puzzle game, with a great story, available for Linux/macOS/Windows, and currently 99 cents on Steam. And if you play it, you'll understand https://www.xkcd.com/606/

Finally, I love solo adventures. So insta-buy.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by PK

When I reviewed this article, I read "the sandbox is a lie" as shorthand for "how to fool your players into thinking the game is sandbox when you actually have it planned out." And I'm pretty darn sure that's how Christopher intended it. It's a section about making sure your players feel like they have free reign to go anywhere, without actually having to first map out every single plot hook of your game world.

Actually that could be deemed offensive but it really depends on intent and how it expresses itself.
This "how to fool your players into thinking the game is sandbox when you actually have it planned out." would annoy me as a player and many in my old game group. My new one would nto mind so much and I think expect a laid out path.
I am ok with a path, though its not my preference. However if I was told there as no path and then it turned out there was one I would likely be annoyed at what I felt was deception.

When I run a game I run sandbox and create various elements for the players to choose. As I get more experience with a group I get better at anticipating them so I can prepare the right things and put off the elements they would not utilize. Sometimes they will still go in unanticipated directions or get there too soon. If that happens I usually try to improvise but sometimes have to call a time out and let the players no (usually subtly) that I need time to prepare for the new direction.
My old group never minded that as they knew how much work was involved (almost everyone was also a GM),

So in my opinion it is not a lie to run a sandbox, it is more coloring in the page as you go. If everything works well your coloring things before they see it. If not they can actually see you filling out the world in front of them. Sometimes even that can be fun for everyone.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by PK

...did you catch that it was a reference to the popular meme, "The Cake is a Lie!"?

I'm another one who'd never heard of it and had to look it up.

Originally Posted by PK

I'm honestly confused, because the words "the sandbox is a lie" don't translate to "people cannot enjoy sandbox play" -- at least, not in any way that I can possibly see. Can someone explain where the insult is?

I have a hypothesis about it. Some people who run sandbox games are quite ideological about that. One quite prolific poster here (now banned) claimed it was the only morally sound way to run an RPG. It can be a whole lot of work.

The title, in isolation, can be interpreted as claiming that "People who claim to be running sandbox games are lying about that and manipulating their players to keep them on the planned plot." GMs who go to a lot of effort not to do that could legitimately be annoyed.

Me, I prepare ideas, but I feel I have to cope with the players whatever they decide to do, preferably without the joints showing. Fortunately, I can improvise.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by PK

In fact, is there anything -- anything at all -- in the actual content of that section that disparages sandbox play or insults those who use it? Because I've reread it multiple times now and I don't see it, so if I'm missing something, I genuinely want to know. In fact, everything there looks like advice on how to run a campaign that feels like a sandbox even if the GM doesn't have the time to craft a thousand plot hooks in advance.

I'm bringing this into the discussion. Specifically the line "Over 20+ years of GMing I've found pure "sandbox" play to be untainable in the long run." So there's a bit of past discussion brought into this by an earlier reader/author exchange.