Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

[Jaware]

Originally Posted by DeathDaisy

IIRC, you can use the Bestow a Penalty modifier to lower their resistance roll.

I was under the impression that the bestow a bonus/penalty modifier had to be used on a separate spell that pierced the targets defenses so that they would be "under the effects of the -resistance" spells, in order for the other one to actually be used.

Can you use the bestows a penalty in order to make a spell you cast harder to resist if that is part of the spell?

Originally Posted by DeathDaisy

I don't think you can get a default over 12 without investing the points. Without training and advantages, you won't be throwing any fireballs without considerable risk and time investment to create charms, what with all the penalties. An effective mage needs the skills and advantages, probably for balance reasons. Grimoires and such can sometimes act as "batteries", but can't be a substitute for real training and talent, I'd say.

I don't disagree. I don't think it's unbalanced or anything. I was just curious on the best way(and most point effective) way to raise the cap of the various paths.

As for batteries, I was thinking of using the exempt on Ravens and pennies about the ability to make one time use "batteries" for it since my game is only a 150 pt fantasy game.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Jaware

My next question, is how does one raise their effective path skill with the limit above 12? I know Margery and such raises it. But how does one cast at say a 14 or a 15 without investing 100+cp into the various base skill+Margery?

Originally Posted by DeathDaisy

I don't think you can get a default over 12 without investing the points. Without training and advantages, you won't be throwing any fireballs without considerable risk and time investment to create charms, what with all the penalties. An effective mage needs the skills and advantages, probably for balance reasons. Grimoires and such can sometimes act as "batteries", but can't be a substitute for real training and talent, I'd say.

There is a LOT you can do to get around climbing up the RPM ladder 18 points at a time.

Higher Purpose (Tradition) is in the RPM main book, and its expanded even further in pyramid 66. This allows you to cut through level caps for a category of spells, up to a maximum of 3. Very nice.

Ritual mastery can give +2 to any ritual.

If you have safe access to a place of power, that's a huge boost to what you can cast.

Pyramid 66 has specialist talents that raise the cap on paths only for that talent.

Finally, Grimoires CAN be a substitute for skill and training. They make you less than flexible, but in some settings its much easier to find a good book than a good caster. I've actually designed a setting where grimoires are considered indispensable tools and every single mage has them.

[DeathDaisy]

Originally Posted by Jaware

I was under the impression that the bestow a bonus/penalty modifier had to be used on a separate spell that pierced the targets defenses so that they would be "under the effects of the -resistance" spells, in order for the other one to actually be used.

Can you use the bestows a penalty in order to make a spell you cast harder to resist if that is part of the spell?

I can't say where I read it without looking around a bit, but I'm 98% sure that you can add Bestow a Penalty to a ritual to make the spell harder to resist. I'm sure someone will correct me if I misremember. On the offchance that I remember wrong, which has happened, I have played that way in campaigns without issues, so shouldn't pose a problem even if it turns out it's not RAW.

Originally Posted by Jaware

I don't disagree. I don't think it's unbalanced or anything. I was just curious on the best way(and most point effective) way to raise the cap of the various paths.

As for batteries, I was thinking of using the exempt on Ravens and pennies about the ability to make one time use "batteries" for it since my game is only a 150 pt fantasy game.

I checked out the batteries on raven and pennies, and that should work great. Ghostdancer is something of a real life magician when it comes to RPM, so if I happen to say something that goes against what he has written, I'm probably wrong.

Originally Posted by ericthered

There is a LOT you can do to get around climbing up the RPM ladder 18 points at a time.

Higher Purpose (Tradition) is in the RPM main book, and its expanded even further in pyramid 66. This allows you to cut through level caps for a category of spells, up to a maximum of 3. Very nice.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Ritual mastery can give +2 to any ritual.

Thing is, that is still a point investment that severely limits the versatility of an RPM caster. Rather than +2 in four different rituals, I'd rather get a +1 in all rituals involving a path. YMMV, of course.

Originally Posted by ericthered

If you have safe access to a place of power, that's a huge boost to what you can cast.

Yeah, finding a place of power is a huge boost to any caster and can be a fun part of an adventure. I'd say it's part of the "time investment and risk" I spoke of.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Finally, Grimoires CAN be a substitute for skill and training. They make you less than flexible, but in some settings its much easier to find a good book than a good caster. I've actually designed a setting where grimoires are considered indispensable tools and every single mage has them.

If your setting has a lot of really powerful grimoires going around, then yeah, of course. However, in a setting where this isn't the case, a GM dishing out powerful grimoires is probably upsetting the balance quite a bit, making the party mage very powerful without them investing the points in it, thus eclipsing the rest of the party.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Pyramid 66 has specialist talents that raise the cap on paths only for that talent.

Yeah, went back and read it, this is a good way if you specialize, which I guess you'll have to do to have any combat utility at lower points.

Overall, I'd still say you're not going to throw any larger amount of fireballs without considerable risk and/or time investment. Just the non-adept cast times makes charms pretty much the only option.

With that said, you could probably get a quite capable magician at just 150 points if you are willing to give up some versatility. However, in a fantasy setting I guess that is often genre appropriate. Druids do druid stuff and elementalists do their stuff, with little overlap.

[ericthered]

Pick 2: fast, versatile, cheap.

Originally Posted by DeathDaisy

Thing is, that is still a point investment that severely limits the versatility of an RPM caster. Rather than +2 in four different rituals, I'd rather get a +1 in all rituals involving a path. YMMV, of course.

The trick is most of the time you should be using that perk you can't just spend 4 points to raise your path. You have to raise magery (for 10), then raise thaumatology (for 4) and then raise the path (for 4). which is a very different set of prices. Yes, it limits your versatility. But sometimes you need fast and cheap instead of versatile and cheap. Or powerful and cheap.

Overall, I'd still say you're not going to throw any larger amount of fireballs without considerable risk and/or time investment. Just the non-adept cast times makes charms pretty much the only option.

Yes, an RPM mage that can throw fireballs willy-nilly without being quite specialized is very powerful. Because they can't just throw fireballs like crazy, they can also throw divinations, buffs, ice bolts, healing spells, demons, and a host of other things willy-nilly. For as long as they can stay awake. which is a long time, given they can just make it so they don't sleep.

If I want an RPM mage throwing fireballs a lot, I generally go to magic as powers and have them buy their favorite attack as an innate attack. The original RPM character, the witch template in monster hunters, did a similar thing with TK.

[Kalzazz]

I was easily able to make a pretty decent blaster focused RPMist on 150pts as a filler member for an adventurers guild

[DeathDaisy]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Pick 2: fast, versatile, cheap.



The trick is most of the time you should be using that perk you can't just spend 4 points to raise your path. You have to raise magery (for 10), then raise thaumatology (for 4) and then raise the path (for 4). which is a very different set of prices. Yes, it limits your versatility. But sometimes you need fast and cheap instead of versatile and cheap. Or powerful and cheap.



Yes, an RPM mage that can throw fireballs willy-nilly without being quite specialized is very powerful. Because they can't just throw fireballs like crazy, they can also throw divinations, buffs, ice bolts, healing spells, demons, and a host of other things willy-nilly. For as long as they can stay awake. which is a long time, given they can just make it so they don't sleep.

If I want an RPM mage throwing fireballs a lot, I generally go to magic as powers and have them buy their favorite attack as an innate attack. The original RPM character, the witch template in monster hunters, did a similar thing with TK.

Good and true points

[Humabout]

Originally Posted by DeathDaisy

I can't say where I read it without looking around a bit, but I'm 98% sure that you can add Bestow a Penalty to a ritual to make the spell harder to resist. I'm sure someone will correct me if I misremember. On the offchance that I remember wrong, which has happened, I have played that way in campaigns without issues, so shouldn't pose a problem even if it turns out it's not RAW.

This, in fact, is not RAW. PK has addressed his concerns over allowing it here:

Originally Posted by PK

Same way as with any other magic system -- raise your skill. :)

(I'm not opposed to the "bestows a penalty" method, mind you. But bear in mind that allowing that to be added cheaply may make magic a bit overpowered.)

Originally Posted by Diomedes

Would it? The cost of the bonus is exponential, after all; that would seem to make it impractical to add large bonuses.

Originally Posted by PK

It's actually the opposite that concerns me -- not the occasional large penalty, but ubiquitous small ones. If it's just a few energy to throw a small penalty to resist onto every ritual, then it's effectively like a free +1 to +3 skill for overcoming resistance, and every competent caster is likely to add it on to every spell.

It's also mechanically questionable. Your spell is imposing a penalty on the subject, except that penalty hits him before it's even determined whether he resisted the spell in the first place. If you ask me, this is a two-spell process. First, you cast a spell like Sorcerous Mark (p. 50), which is resisted normally. Then that ritual gives the target a penalty to resist subsequent spells.

(Again, I'm not trying to put my foot down and saying, as the designer, that it's not legal. I'm just explaining why I see some issues with it. The final call here is explicitly up to the GM.)

Full Thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=119351

[DeathDaisy]

Originally Posted by Humabout

This, in fact, is not RAW. PK has addressed his concerns over allowing it here:
[snip]

Well, damn. My memory has betrayed me again.

[Humabout]

Originally Posted by DeathDaisy

Well, damn. My memory has betrayed me again.

It happens. I actually thought he had more firmly nixed the idea than he did. We both learned something.

[Jaware]

Ok. I seem to have confused myself somehow.

having a higher skill helps overcome defenses.

how so?

if your cap skill is set. Then having a higher skill doesn't help any because it's set.

or is it only set at (12+magery)+bonuses from various sources. for the gathering energy.

And then using your normal skill (no cap) for the casting?