[High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I suspect the intent is that the bonuses don't stack; you get one or the other.

Why? A targeting LASER and a scope don't have such an incompatibility.

[sir_pudding]

Hans isn't prescient?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Hans isn't prescient?

Quite. Here's a modern system that shows how this works.

http://combatsportsupply.com/images/...il/SM19024.jpg

It has a 3x magnifier that can be moved into place behind the reflex sight.

Here's a video that shows how they work together, look for the green dot (Vicky's is also a video; I missed it my first read through)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xglRY0DUQg

I'd probably just let 'em stack: You always get the +1 to Guns skill because magnified or not, you can see the dot and you keep both eyes open; aim and you get another +1 for the magnifying scope (just so it does something).

Using On Target, where Aim is a skill roll, I would probably require the equivalent of a Fast-Aim roll to pick up the dot, because the field of view from which you can see said dot is narrower and requires more-proper cheek weld with the magnifier. If you make the roll, you get the +1 to Guns (proper alignment) instantly. If you then take the Aim action, that impacts your Guns skill and helps you aim. A successful Aim roll will ALSO give you the reflex sight bonus if you haven't earned it already, and also gain your either your Acc flat bonus or the die roll that I love the most. :-)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I'd probably just let 'em stack: You always get the +1 to Guns skill because magnified or not, you can see the dot and you keep both eyes open; aim and you get another +1 for the magnifying scope (just so it does something).

Originally Posted by HANS

Magnification (Acc bonus) and improved target acquistion (red dot and open eyes for +1 to Guns) are mutually exclusive. Once the magnifier is put in place, the combination works as a scope, more or less (at least enough for game purposes), with the red dot taking the place of the crosshairs or whatever in a conventional scope. In other words, either +X Acc or +1 Guns, never both at the same time.

Cheers

HANS

What are the arguments for picking this or that interpretation?
To me it seems like the biggest thing that could be an argument in favour of non-stacking is if there's some fundamental difference between looking through a scope and seeing the 'real' dot vs. looking through a magnifier and seeing a reflex dot. But it's quite possible that I'm misunderstanding what other difference are involved. (I tried shooting with iron sights and practicing in 'dry' mode with a targeting LASER, but not with a real scope nor a real collimator.)

Originally Posted by HANS

I have already mentioned it: the fact that you can keep both eyes open with a red dot. This vastly improves sight acquisition and situational awareness. This is the underlying reason for the +1 to Guns. As soon as you add magnification, you get tunnel vision and can only sight with the one eye to the tube. This allows you to take advantage of the magnification, but robs you of the fast acquisition.

Cheers

HANS

But that seems to be something universal for all magnifiers, yet seeing a real (LASER) dot through a scope (with magnification) stacks. I'm trying to understand why tunnel vision is a problem for reflex dots but not for real dots.

[HANS]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

What are the arguments for picking this or that interpretation?
To me it seems like the biggest thing that could be an argument in favour of non-stacking is if there's some fundamental difference between looking through a scope and seeing the 'real' dot vs. looking through a magnifier and seeing a reflex dot. But it's quite possible that I'm misunderstanding what other difference are involved. (I tried shooting with iron sights and practicing in 'dry' mode with a targeting LASER, but not with a real scope nor a real collimator.)


But that seems to be something universal for all magnifiers, yet seeing a real (LASER) dot through a scope (with magnification) stacks. I'm trying to understand why tunnel vision is a problem for reflex dots but not for real dots.

The huge advantage of the reflex/collimating sights is that you do not have to align target, front sight, and rear sight. You just have to place that dot on the target. That is much quicker and easier, especially since you can even see the dot if your head is not perfectly aligned. Anything with magnification makes the alignment of the target, reticle, and head critical. I stand by my assessment, backed up by my experience with the things, that the advantages do not stack.
Now, the other question is why you can use a targeting laser with a telecopic sight, as High-Tech claims. Frankly, I have no personal experience with these, as targeting lasers are verboten in Germany. On reflection, though, this may be a genuine error, as the advantage of a targeting laser is similar to a red dot; you do not need to look at the sights, only the target. However, you always need to look through a scope to get the Acc bonus. That probably couldn't mix in a way that allows stacking the advantages.

Cheers

HANS

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by HANS

Now, the other question is why you can use a targeting laser with a telecopic sight, as High-Tech claims. Frankly, I have no personal experience with these, as targeting lasers are verboten in Germany. On reflection, though, this may be a genuine error, as the advantage of a targeting laser is similar to a red dot; you do not need to look at the sights, only the target. However, you always need to look through a scope to get the Acc bonus. That probably couldn't mix in a way that allows stacking the advantages.

Cheers

HANS

I know the popular image of snipers shining their red dots on a target is a thing, but I do not have knowledge to say whether they're based on reality. If not, then that may be an error. However, if this popular image is based on real life, then some sort of benefit looks more plausible.

Anyone else with more knowledge/experience in the matter willing to chime in?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I know the popular image of snipers shining their red dots on a target is a thing, but I do not have knowledge to say whether they're based on reality. If not, then that may be an error. However, if this popular image is based on real life, then some sort of benefit looks more plausible.

Anyone else with more knowledge/experience in the matter willing to chime in?

I VERY much suspect this is a theatrical conceit, much like holding a pistol by your face (which keeps the gun in the camera frame, but is otherwise pretty poor weapon handling for many reasons).

A laser dot on a chest is visceral for the audience. Unless there's dust in the air, it WON'T be visceral for the target unless they catch sight of the beam.

With a rifle, especially a scoped one, the laser dot is actually not helpful in increasing Accuracy. The laser is straight, but the bullet arcs. There are dots and stuff on proper scopes that help you adjust for such that are going to be more precise than a laser, especially as the beam spreads and diffuses at range.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

What are the arguments for picking this or that interpretation?

That Hans has used them in actual gunfire tests, and I have not. I accept his interpretation for both game-mechanical and use-case reasons.

But that seems to be something universal for all magnifiers, yet seeing a real (LASER) dot through a scope (with magnification) stacks. I'm trying to understand why tunnel vision is a problem for reflex dots but not for real dots.

The reflex and laser sights are both "eyes open on target" devices. The dot appears floating in the air (obviously within the glass of the scope) and you squeeze the trigger when the dot is more or less where you want it, and this helps you do everything faster. That's +1 to Guns.

When you're focusing to get Accuracy, you actually are looking at your weapon - either into the scope tube or holding the front sight of your weapon in sharp relief. This cuts down on awareness of *everything* else but where you're pointing it. It is more accurate (it had better be) but of a necessity it restricts your focus and perception.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I suspect the intent is that the bonuses don't stack; you get one or the other.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Why? A targeting LASER and a scope don't have such an incompatibility.

Well, you're only looking through one optic at a time.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Hans isn't prescient?

Do you mean that people didn't combine them like that IRL when HT was published?

Originally Posted by Icelander

Well, you're only looking through one optic at a time.

Are you? In the video, one is looking through both.