Can I grapple with Bite+arms in one attack?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If you do this, you should use the relative SM rules on p. 9.

Are you saying to combine these options, or to only use the TG one? Personally, I feel you should use actual SM for the "Bigger and Stronger!" rules, but use Born Biter SM for determining if it's one-handed or two-handed. So, a Chinese Alligator (SM -1, Jaw ST 11, Born Biter 3, Wrestling at DX+2 - from here) fighting another SM -1 creature has an effective TST 13 and its grapples count as two-handed. Against an SM +0 creature, it still has TST 13 and two-handed grapples, but the foe has a +15% boost to TST and +1 to DX. Against SM +1 things are similar, but the foe gets a +30% boost to TST and +2 to DX. Against SM +2, its grapples are now counted as one-handed, so it only has TST 7*, and the foe is at +45% to ST and +3 to DX.

Against smaller creatures, its grapples are still two-handed, but now it gets the bonuses to TST and DX. An SM -2 target, for example, has to contend with TST 15** and DX 13 (for Wrestling 15).

*ST is halved to 5, then the +2 Training bonus boosts it to 7.
**I know GURPS is usually round down, but I just can't bring myself to round 14.95 down to 14.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Are you saying to combine these options, or to only use the TG one?

The TG one only, because a one-handed grapple is represented by low control points (ST is halved for only using one hand; you can alternatively just roll regular damage and halve it, which will be faster at the table).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The TG one only, because a one-handed grapple is represented by low control points (ST is halved for only using one hand; you can alternatively just roll regular damage and halve it, which will be faster at the table).

Just to make certain we're on the same page here, I'm specifically referring to the handling of bites. TG currently has bites roughly equivalent to two handed grapples (generating as many CP as damage rolled, meaning using full ST, albeit if untrained you have a -1 to damage relative to a two-handed grab) regardless of relative size. My suggestion was that, against foes who are the same size as you or larger, you'd basically use half the rolled damage to determine CP, functionally making such bites into one-handed grapples.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Just to make certain we're on the same page here, I'm specifically referring to the handling of bites. TG currently has bites roughly equivalent to two handed grapples (generating as many CP as damage rolled, meaning using full ST, albeit if untrained you have a -1 to damage relative to a two-handed grab) regardless of relative size. My suggestion was that, against foes who are the same size as you or larger, you'd basically use half the rolled damage to determine CP, functionally making such bites into one-handed grapples.

That's a decent way to play it, so I won't tell you "don't do that," because speed of play is key.

The way the rules are written, though, small mouths just basically get slapped with -1 DX and -1 damage per 2d of attack damage (-15% to Trained ST) per SM difference.

The number of hands involved in a grapple was replaced by the new "halve it for control points."

Note that Trained ST is zero at 7 size modifiers difference, halved at between 3 and 4. So a small dog or cat with SM -3 or -4 will be at -3 or -4 per 2d of damage - basically halved anyway.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The way the rules are written, though, small mouths just basically get slapped with -1 DX and -1 damage per 2d of attack damage (-15% to Trained ST) per SM difference.

I just redownloaded it to make certain this wasn't in an update, but "Bigger and Stronger" gives the larger character a +1 DX and +15% to TST, with no penalty to the smaller one, and that appears to be the only instance of "15%" in the document. Was the intent that there be both a penalty (to the smaller) and bonus (to the larger), that there be just the penalty, or that there be just the bonus (as it currently is)?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I just redownloaded it to make certain this wasn't in an update, but "Bigger and Stronger" gives the larger character a +1 DX and +15% to TST, with no penalty to the smaller one, and that appears to be the only instance of "15%" in the document. Was the intent that there be both a penalty (to the smaller) and bonus (to the larger), that there be just the penalty, or that there be just the bonus (as it currently is)?

For grapples, you're right, no penalty to the smaller one, and by extension to my own rules, that's correct as well for the bites. The smaller mouth gets no penalty, only a big one gets advantage.

Might be a good case for a house rule, and the -1 per 2d and the 15% are the same thing, of course.

The intent was to simplify by not having a double whammy, where not only is the big guy gifted with a bonus, but the little guy is ALSO hit with penalties.

It would be interesting to have it reciprocal, but I wanted to avoid an instance of "recalculate everything for every pair of fighters."

There's already too much recalc in the subsystem as it is; that's something I'd tweak harder in a second edition (and something I avoided in what is effectively its sequel: Dungeon Grappling for DnD)