What does Unfit apply to?

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Ouch. At this point Unfit seems extremely nasty for [-5]. Especially compared to just getting -1 FP [-3] and Easy to Kill 1 [-2].

For that reason, I don't think I'll apply it to extra effort in combat (assuming I ever see a PC with it). I think it's overkill for -5 points, the other penalties easily are worth 5 pts of inconvenience, and when I allow EE it tends to be a big part of the game. I would probably give -5 or -10 for no EE in combat by itself based on my games. Either that or bump Unfit up to -10 or -15 because it would be roughly equivalent to -3 to -5 fatigue.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by corwyn

For that reason, I don't think I'll apply it to extra effort in combat (assuming I ever see a PC with it). I think it's overkill for -5 points, the other penalties easily are worth 5 pts of inconvenience, and when I allow EE it tends to be a big part of the game. I would probably give -5 or -10 for no EE in combat by itself based on my games. Either that or bump Unfit up to -10 or -15 because it would be roughly equivalent to -3 to -5 fatigue.

At - 10 it is the only disadvantage a regular person might have, and at - 15 it is now solely a disadvantage of more capable characters. Reluctant Killer plus Unfit and two Quirks is already -12 points for your everyman.

[Kelly Pedersen]

I agree that Unfit is fine at -5 - all the stuff it penalizes are either stuff you can choose to avoid (e.g., Extra Effort), or they're things that a lot of Unfit character concepts can avoid (wizards who levitate everywhere, nobles with servants to carry them about, and so on). Too much higher, and it would be more "free points" for the sort of character who would take it. Also, keeping it at -5 makes it much easier to buy off, which is an important thing, I think. The narrative arc of "out-of-shape individual goes on an adventure, gets into much better condition" is, while hardly a defining concept, still a pretty common one. Too much more expensive, and I think you'd just see a lot of characters not take Unfit at all, rather than taking it and buying it off over a couple of sessions.

However, that said...

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

At - 10 it is the only disadvantage a regular person might have, and at - 15 it is now solely a disadvantage of more capable characters. Reluctant Killer plus Unfit and two Quirks is already -12 points for your everyman.

I don't think using a disadvantage limit as the logic makes much sense for this. Disadvantage limits are an optional rule in the first place, and I don't believe they're intended for NPCs in any case - NPCs should just have whatever disadvantages make sense for the their character concept. Even if we're talking about very low-value player characters, I don't think using "half your character point total" as the disadvantage limit makes much sense. The "half your total" rule breaks down at either high or low point values. For a character built on 25 points, I'd just use -25 points, or even higher, as the disad limit.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I agree that Unfit is fine at -5 - all the stuff it penalizes are either stuff you can choose to avoid (e.g., Extra Effort), or they're things that a lot of Unfit character concepts can avoid (wizards who levitate everywhere, nobles with servants to carry them about, and so on). Too much higher, and it would be more "free points" for the sort of character who would take it. Also, keeping it at -5 makes it much easier to buy off, which is an important thing, I think. The narrative arc of "out-of-shape individual goes on an adventure, gets into much better condition" is, while hardly a defining concept, still a pretty common one. Too much more expensive, and I think you'd just see a lot of characters not take Unfit at all, rather than taking it and buying it off over a couple of sessions.

But for the same [-5] points, you can get to penalize part of the stuff you listed above: get -1 FP and Easy to Kill 1. Now your roll penalty applies to just one type of roll instead of many, and your FP problem is just a single FP smaller pool instead of an effectively halved one.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

At - 10 it is the only disadvantage a regular person might have, and at - 15 it is now solely a disadvantage of more capable characters. Reluctant Killer plus Unfit and two Quirks is already -12 points for your everyman.

Disadvantage limits are an optional rule, so if you don't use that rule it's not a problem.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anders

Disadvantage limits are an optional rule, so if you don't use that rule it's not a problem.

Extra Effort in Combat is an optional rule, so if you don't use that rule it isn't a problem.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Anders

Disadvantage limits are an optional rule, so if you don't use that rule it's not a problem.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Extra Effort in Combat is an optional rule, so if you don't use that rule it isn't a problem.

True. But PK's clarifications weren't really about EE in combat.

[sir_pudding]

If you are out of shape and start exercising consistently, basic cardiovascular fitness is one of the first notable gains, which also suggests that the point cost in terms of Time Use should be relatively low.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you are out of shape and start exercising consistently, basic cardiovascular fitness is one of the first notable gains, which also suggests that the point cost in terms of Time Use should be relatively low.

Agreed. One of the principles has to go - either Point Value won't scale with Time Use or with (negative) utility. I would disregard the Time Use rule, but I understand may be inclined to do otherwise.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by corwyn

For that reason, I don't think I'll apply it to extra effort in combat (assuming I ever see a PC with it). I think it's overkill for -5 points, the other penalties easily are worth 5 pts of inconvenience, and when I allow EE it tends to be a big part of the game. I would probably give -5 or -10 for no EE in combat by itself based on my games. Either that or bump Unfit up to -10 or -15 because it would be roughly equivalent to -3 to -5 fatigue.

The possibility of messing up extra effort is virtually the only situation where Unfit is likely to come up as a problem for the player. I mean sure the character will be miserable in a cross country hike and will slow more fit people down, but that's just roleplaying stuff. It doesn't affect your ability to succeed for the most part.



And yeah, it's important to consider how hard it will be to buy/train off a disad. Unfit is one of the advantages that is most likely to be eliminated in the course of a character arc. Or a training montage.

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