Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

In a less mechanistic, more fluffy example, it has been recently pointed out to me that while Mage the Ascension is a game in which Ascension plays a major role, the books provide no (or very little) evidence that Ascension is in fact achievable.

In Mage how could you know Ascension was real even if you experienced it? :) "Is this real?" questions are why I starting ignoring Mage almost as soon as I heard of it.

I'm about to start playing a Pathfinder Cleric again. Idunno Szralic Cleric of Desna, Lady of the Stars. Idunno definitely thinks the Lady of the stars is real because he talks to her when he's outside at night. He thinks She answers him too.

Members of any organized religion based around Her may be a little dubious. Idunno doesn't do "organized" very well. Somebody/Something is giving him magic powers but I don't need to know if She is real even in game terms.

Is that even close to what you are asking (if you even have a question in there somewhere)?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Why is the player expected to have faith?

Expected? Not in most campaigns.

But I found it interesting that in some games, the exploration of faith can go deeper than the PC and reach all the way towards testing the faith of the player.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

In Mage how could you know Ascension was real even if you experienced it? :) "Is this real?" questions are why I starting ignoring Mage almost as soon as I heard of it.

Such questions seem to be the reason why MtA is quite relevant to the exploration of faith.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I'm about to start playing a Pathfinder Cleric again. Idunno Szralic Cleric of Desna, Lady of the Stars. Idunno definitely thinks the Lady of the stars is real because he talks to her when he's outside at night. He thinks She answers him too.

Members of any organized religion based around Her may be a little dubious. Idunno doesn't do "organized" very well. Somebody/Something is giving him magic powers but I don't need to know if She is real even in game terms.

Is that even close to what you are asking (if you even have a question in there somewhere)?

That seems somewhat related and somewhat not. Notably, a Pathfinder (or D&D, for that matter) Cleric seems to be only vaguely related to matters of faith because in those settings, evidence exists that confirms the reality of divine and supernatural powers.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Such questions seem to be the reason why MtA is quite relevant to the exploration of faith.


That seems somewhat related and somewhat not. Notably, a Pathfinder (or D&D, for that matter) Cleric seems to be only vaguely related to matters of faith because in those settings, evidence exists that confirms the reality of divine and supernatural powers.

Idunno doesn't believe because he gets stuff and he didn't become a Cleric so he could get stuff. He experienced a spontaneous epiphany around the campfire one night. All the stuff is just because the Lady of the Stars is generous.

_His_ faith is absolute. Mine is irrelevant.

[Flyndaran]

It still seems like either a purely roleplaying choice or some player's going to get ******. Either the Faithful spending points for something that has no effect, or the non-Faithful watching someone that didn't spend points on something that does have an effect.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Idunno doesn't believe because he gets stuff and he didn't become a Cleric so he could get stuff. He experienced a spontaneous epiphany around the campfire one night. All the stuff is just because the Lady of the Stars is generous.

Even if his motivation isn't selfish, he still lives in a world where the supernatural is a proven fact, not a matter of faith. Him accepting the clerical role would require about as much faith as me accepting a programmer role: "computers work, and everybody knows it for a fact and there is no doubt"; "gods exist and do miracle, everybody knows it and there is no doubt".

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

_His_ faith is absolute. Mine is irrelevant.

Now, about that: I'm wondering how much such an attitude can be a barrier to the exploration of faith by a player/the players of an RPG.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

...
Now, about that: I'm wondering how much such an attitude can be a barrier to the exploration of faith by a player/the players of an RPG.

That sounds more like psychotherapy than gaming.
I had a GM that brought way too much personal baggage to the game. Didn't really lead to players' fun.

[ericthered]

Rereading everything, you're interested in getting the player to trust the GM will probably give him concrete benefits for certain gaming choices?

Because that's eventually what it boils down to. The GM has decided to give hidden benefits or not to give them, and the player doesn't know if he's going to get them or not. Because the GM isn't a mysterious force, but a person, it comes to trust in the GM.

I can think of one game where that would fit right in: paranoia.

Which highlights that such a game is about risk taking and embracing the unknown, and that theme fits dark gritty games best-- which don't lend themselves to religion.

By contrast, a GM could say: "This trait will be beneficial to you, but I'm never going to tell you exactly how." The GM is now duty bound to actually give the bonus. I suppose you could play around with that, but in some ways its just as effective at breaking out of the game as a bonus that you can see.

I don't see either of these as really working with "Faith". Instead they deal with trust, risk, and reading your GM's poker face.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Expected? Not in most campaigns.

But I found it interesting that in some games, the exploration of faith can go deeper than the PC and reach all the way towards testing the faith of the player.

In general I would say that this is the type of thing that is a truly terrible idea to incorporate in a game unless all the players already share a faith, and maybe even then. As in, the type of thing that may cause the entire gaming group to self-destruct.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Even if his motivation isn't selfish, he still lives in a world where the supernatural is a proven fact, not a matter of faith. Him accepting the clerical role would require about as much faith as me accepting a programmer role: "computers work, and everybody knows it for a fact and there is no doubt"; "gods exist and do miracle, everybody knows it and there is no doubt".
..

Well, there's a huge difference between some forms of magic existing in world and mysterious omni(potent/science/benevolent) entities.

I can see someone accepting all magic or even all healing arts as divine and proof of gods while another would use and abuse such abilities. But that also falls to roleplaying.