Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming

[whswhs]

I think in GURPS terms what you're talking about seems a lot like a Delusion, worth negative points. If faith makes no difference in the game, it's no more than a zero point feature, and it would then be something you roleplay because you choose to.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I think in GURPS terms what you're talking about seems a lot like a Delusion, worth negative points. If faith makes no difference in the game, it's no more than a zero point feature, and it would then be something you roleplay because you choose to.

A Feature (or Delusion) would be similar to the third case I described. But I'm more interested in the first two cases, i.e. where there is no [conclusive] evidence that would [reliably] confirm or deny the hypothesis that a supernatural power (or equivalent) to has an effect on the natural world.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

A Feature (or Delusion) would be similar to the third case I described. But I'm more interested in the first two cases, i.e. where there is no [conclusive] evidence that would [reliably] confirm or deny the hypothesis that a supernatural power (or equivalent) to has an effect on the natural world.

The thing is that this, and similar stuff like the perpetual how to make magic "mysterious" argument, does not work very well in a game.

A game needs rules, and if there are any differences in effects between characters for them, you need to tell the players at least the outline of those rules when they are opting in or out of them in order for them to be fair.

"This trait it may or may not do something" either cheats everybody who took it (or didn't), or it has a fair cost, and if it has a fair cost, it's automatically relatively apparent if it will have much effect or not.

[Ransom]

I've played a character who was a devout christian in a grimdark historical fantasy setting. He had no supernatural advantages but his faith served as a justification to make him rather minmaxed to fit the "martyr" stereotype - absurdly hard to kill or intimidate, with strong social skills, but insignificant in a fight and almost pathologically selfless and naive.

That was fun for me because I am the method actor/tactician type of player. My fun isn't particularly tied to my character's success in absolute terms, and I enjoy the challenge of overcoming handicaps more than the glory of being the most effective member of the party.

If you want faith to have concrete game mechanical effects while still capturing the feel of genuine faith, you want to use subtle mechanics like rerolls or serendipitous coincidences, or things like GURPS's higher purpose and daredevil advantages, where the faithful can't count on any particular concrete effect but just do better across the board when acting according to their faith.

[Anthony]

I'm not sure what distinction you're making between 'having' faith and 'roleplaying' faith. In general, if 'faith' has a meaning, its effects can be either direct (if you have faith, you get plusses) or indirect (if you have faith, certain entities react differently towards you). Note that faith can have indirect effects even if there are no supernatural forces associated with it (entirely mundane entities might still care about your faith), it's just that supernatural entities often have supernatural means of detecting your faith.

However, if you're charging points for faith, it should have reasonably defined concrete effects. Even if the only concrete effect is "you detect as faithful".

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I'm not sure what distinction you're making between 'having' faith and 'roleplaying' faith. In general, if 'faith' has a meaning, its effects can be either direct (if you have faith, you get plusses) or indirect (if you have faith, certain entities react differently towards you). Note that faith can have indirect effects even if there are no supernatural forces associated with it (entirely mundane entities might still care about your faith), it's just that supernatural entities often have supernatural means of detecting your faith.

However, if you're charging points for faith, it should have reasonably defined concrete effects. Even if the only concrete effect is "you detect as faithful".

Roleplaying faith as in "I have read the setting materials / paid points / etc. and so I know if I play my character like this, the supernatural entities of the setting will provide goodies". Having faith is more along the lines of "there's this story from NPC preachers, who say that doing such-and-such provides supernatural benefits; I don't have proof, and there aren't any OOC signs to confirm that there's a mechanical effect, but I have faith that the benefits are true and thus will behave accordingly". In both cases, roleplaying a PC with faith is a thing; in one case the player doesn't have faith (due to having proof one way or another), in another the player does.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

In both cases, roleplaying a PC with faith is a thing; in one case the player doesn't have faith (due to having proof one way or another), in another the player does.

Why is the player expected to have faith?