Emerging smokepowder weapons in my fantasy

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Any time one uses welding and boring over casting for economic purposes, it is safe to assume it's material costs that make the difference.

That is my intuitive feel, but I don't really know enough about smithing to be certain.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

If you have that much bronze readily available for cheap,

I just recalled that a tribe of 'ash'* giants that the PCs have a trading contract with have access to several hundred tons of copper bars, treasure that was their share from a temple that the PCs invaded (and the giants helped them carry away treasure). As these giants are TL0, they'll not have any use for the copper and be willing to trade it away at very good rates for more sheep, goats and various foodstuffs (they like beer).

More tin would have to come from Murghom, where the PCs actually have some contacts, Thay (ditto) or the gold dwarves of the Great Rifts. The dwarves would be the best source, but probably more expensive than the other two. Thay has the benefit of being accessible to the PCs' shipping, whereas Murghom is cut-off from the sea by the enemy empire of Mulhorand, though the Thayan tin mines are pretty far from the ports in question. But there is already infrastructure in place to portage the products of the mines down some rivers to Bezantur, so I imagine that they'll be able to beat the dwarven price easily.

Bronze ought to remain cheaper for the PCs than high-quality steel, at least for the foreseeable future, i.e. the next few months of warfare.

*Really stone giants who live in a strongly volcanic area and happen to have a colouration that is remnisicent of their neighbouring stone.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

along with the masses of unskilled laborers, you can get to work on four types of molds for bronze casting on a large scale.

How much use are actual unskilled labourers?

Well, I suppose many of the 'unskilled labourers' available are actually skilled acricultural workers displaced from their homes. Not to mention all the (more-or-less former) slaves, rural and urban, who fled the invaders rather than accept temple slavery among the conquerors and have ended up in the massive refugee camps around the last great city of Unther. A significant portion of the slaves will have experience of public works, in the off seasons for acricultural work.

On the other hand, with a hundred or so professional bronzesmiths, brassfounders and suchlike available, I imagine that there won't be much call for actual unskilled labour near the casting of the barrels. Though if there is anything that people without Bronzesmith, Machinist and/or Metallurgy at 12+ can usefully contribute, obviously, it would be nice to be able to employ some of the refugees.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Make one mold for your muskets, one for blunderbusses, one for pistols, and one for cannons.

I'm pretty sure that they'll end up with far more moulds than that.

They already have calivers of ca 22-bore with a 24" long barrel, so there will be an institutional tendency among the officers assigned to the ordnance and procurement duties to buy more of those. Experience has shown that even with very long sword bayonets, however, the calivers are not as effective in a melee as good spears purposely designed for two-handed use, at least not if the other side has lances or spears of more than 6' total length.

The Artisan Guards, recruited from the para-military security regiments that grew up in the quarter of Messemprar reserved for craftsmen during the last fifteen years of effective anarchy, use staves for riot control and many of their number are adept at the fighting arts of the Qarradu sarrupim azamrutu (Warriors of the Argent Lance)*, albeit a simplified version. The Artisan Guards will be used as security for various urban locations and as a military police unit. During training with firearms their officers expressed a desire that they might be issued something better balanced for use as a fighting staff than the short caliver. I expect that to lead to a slender fusil with a longer barrel than the calivers.

There are also excellent reasons to contemplate specific weapons for ST 11+ recruits, as heavier weapons firing larger balls than the 22-bore calivers are not only more effective against heavily armoured infantry, but they also have a longer point blank range and may thus be able to fire effective volleys at long enough range to make harassing fire with slings or bows ineffective.**

Then there are carbines for cavalry or mounted infantry, horse pistols for cavalry (don't need to be as carefully made as Sea Service pistols which must resist sea spray) and maybe even mobile artillery to support the infantry. And that's just the smoothbores for land. On sea, there are calivers for marines, blunderbusses, pistols, murderers and swivel-guns.

*As the formerly apolitical mages and scholars of the Northern Wizards found themselves cast as an armed resistance against the God-King of Unther and later as the effective defenders of the free city of Messemprar as authority in Unther crumbled, those among its ranks who rose to the occasion as battle mages form a strong faction within the organisation, as sort of brotherhood within a brotherhood. Their mastery of spells relying on pure magical force has been combined with local armed and pankration traditions to create an all-around martial art focusing on using magical staves and wands as melee weapons, often enough enhanced by blades of magical force. Many patrotic citizens, even if they are not able to cast spells, have adopted the techniques of spear, staff and baton/long knife fighting of these mystical knights.
**Realistically, bows and slings are only useful for harassing fire at an area at distances over 50 yards or so and they are never very effective against armoured troops, but it is nevertheless extremely annoying to calivermen to have skirmishing archers and slingers at 150-200 yds raining down arrows or sling bullets which can cause painful wounds, put out eyes or even kill occasionally. With a 22-bore smoothbore, it's useless to fire at point targets at that range, because the trajectory is too extreme and the shooter needs to know the exact range, but heavier muskets might reach 200 yds without having to fire at too much of an angle.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Since gun barrel production will probably exceed the rate at which stocks and firing mechanisms can be made, putting some effort into cannons is probably not a bad idea. After all, I'm sure the navy wouldn't mind a few. That, and the effect a cannonball has when fired through a mass of infantry.

Cannon need firing mechanisms, just as smallarms do, although I imagine that being so much more expensive than fusils, the PCs will opt to make all the cannon they buy 'magelocks', i.e. fired through an Ignite Fire enchantment and powered by either an Exclusive Powerstone or the Power 1 enchantment*.

Cannons also require carriages where metal is used for such things as axles, screws, trunnions and quoins. This makes them a lot more trouble to construct than just wooden stocks, I imagine.

That is not to say that some of the casting capability won't go toward artillery, just that this will be because of their military utility, not because it's faster to make cannon than fusils.

Cannon round shot is actually not very effective against personnel, at least not compared to the 2-3 lbs. of smokepowder it takes to fire it and how many ca one ounce round balls might be fired from fusils for the same amount of powder.

The navy will, however, be very willing to receive half-pounder to 3-pounder swivel-guns and the smaller 'murderers'**, which are not only useful as anti-boarding defences when loaded with grapeshot or canister, but will also serve to discourage attacking dragons and other flying monsters.

*With a limitation I'll allow on the enchantment cost for only working with one specific spell, by analogy from Dedicated and Exclusive Powerstones. Power 1 which can provide 1 FP to power six different spells, some of them Always On, is a lot more useful than Power 1 which only powers one spell.
**Long muskets with claws to support against walls, firing 4 oz. lead round balls.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Cannon need firing mechanisms, just as smallarms do, although I imagine that being so much more expensive than fusils, the PCs will opt to make all the cannon they buy 'magelocks', i.e. fired through an Ignite Fire enchantment and powered by either an Exclusive Powerstone or the Power 1 enchantment*.

Cannons also require carriages where metal is used for such things as axles, screws, trunnions and quoins. This makes them a lot more trouble to construct than just wooden stocks, I imagine.

Cannon round shot is actually not very effective against personnel, at least not compared to the 2-3 lbs. of smokepowder it takes to fire it and how many ca one ounce round balls might be fired from fusils for the same amount of powder.

The firing mechanism for a cannon is actually rather simple compared to a rifle, which is why cannons hit the fields before muskets. The hard part is getting your metal strong enough to survive the require pressures, and I'm sure your smiths and mages can handle that with ease. As for mobility, well, fixed emplacements on walls just plain scare people, while those on ships only need to move enough to handle their own recoil. And as for not being effective against infantry? Check out some statistics from the American Civil War. The Napoleon Model 1857 could fire solid shot, shotgun-like shot, and explosives at a range of 1,619 yards. Solid shot ended up taking more than a few soldiers out of the fight when they saw it rolling along and thought they could kick it, while fragmentation rounds are just plain bad for everybody.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Cannon round shot is actually not very effective against personnel, at least not compared to the 2-3 lbs. of smokepowder it takes to fire it and how many ca one ounce round balls might be fired from fusils for the same amount of powder.

Well . . . I've heard that the benefits of round shot include the ability to break up massed formations (i.e., pikes) at a distance. Relatively few people might be killed, but those deaths will be quite dramatic and may persuade the faint-hearted to recall an urgent engagement elsewhere. And, people ducking & dodging the rolling cannon balls will also disrupt things.

But the real prize is defense at short range -- multiple shots, langrage & canister. As Catton said of the American Civil War, a 12 pounder firing triple shotted canister would dismember charging infantry faster than their replacements could get into action.

"Well, that's the ACW." Well, a 12 pounder from 1550 could fire multiple shot rounds about as well as a Napoleon in 1862. It was in the areas of shellfire & mobility that the Napoleon shone; it was still a smoothbore firing multiple-shot rounds as in 1550. As Nathan Bedford Forrest said, "There really isn't any good way to attack a battery."