System comparison GURPS Dungeon Fantasy vs DnD 5e...?

DocRailgun · 09-17-2016, 10:26 PM

It depends on what kind of game you'really looking for. Yes, DF is supposed to be a munchkiny sort of game, but you can also easily do a low-powered gritty game (as in classic AD&D, where a party fought one encounter with some fire beetles and then had to hobble back to town to rest). Those sorts of games aren't possible anymore in 5th edition without a lot of work on the GM's part - most everyone has more hp now (wizards even have a d6), ample chances to heal themselves with hour long rests, arcane spellcasters in armor (though with high Dex, light armor is as good as heavy armor), and almost anyone can have a blaster spell they can cast each round if they want to be a High elf, take a level in a spellcasters class or spend a feat at 4th level.

On the other hand, 5th ed. doesn't have the unstoppable juggernauts of mid-to-high level 3.5 because there aren't a million ways to get bonuses - there no more of the stackable armor class bonuses l, for instance. The stat-boosting spells of 3.5 (Bull's Strength, etc.) don't actually increase stats in 5th ed., they just give advantage on that stat's tests, so adventurers won't be getting +10 Str and Dex (+something arcane, +something divine, +something profane, etc.) before battles.

The nice thing is that there are reasons to play fighters now, especially if you want to play a gish. There's niche protection if you want it or you can end up with PCs who can do their class' job, cast one of those blaster can trips, and cast some minor healing by 8th level even without sacrificing any main class levels.

Rasputin · 09-17-2016, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocRailgun

It depends on what kind of game you're really looking for. Yes, DF is supposed to be a munchkiny sort of game, but you can also easily do a low-powered gritty game (as in classic AD&D, where a party fought one encounter with some fire beetles and then had to hobble back to town to rest). Those sorts of games aren't possible anymore in 5th edition without a lot of work on the GM's part - most everyone has more hp now (wizards even have a d6), ample chances to heal themselves with hour long rests, arcane spellcasters in armor (though with high Dex, light armor is as good as heavy armor), and almost anyone can have a blaster spell they can cast each round if they want to be a High elf, take a level in a spellcasters class or spend a feat at 4th level.

That's an excellent point. If you want an old-school game in D&D 5e, you have to break many of the assumptions on which the system is based. Mind you, this isn't too hard—make sure you include wandering monsters in the dungeon, gold for XP and multiply XP goals by five for each level—but you lose a lot of the support of the system. GURPS? Run the game at 125 points using the templates in Henchmen. Make sure you have lots of fodder monsters. Done.

mehrkat · 09-18-2016, 09:46 AM

DnD is at its core a game where you assess the danger and expect to use and lose resources and a dungeon crawl is this choice over and over again.

Should I use my ability that takes a long rest to get back or ask I going to need it later. Will the hp I take in this battle a lower cost. Those are the tactical choices you are making.

In GURPS the tactical choices you are making involve making sure you have the advantage in each combat, where every blow taken matter. Each second you have tactically significant choices.

I find it feels different.

lordabdul · 09-18-2016, 12:12 PM

I can't really speak to GURPS DF vs. DnD specifically, but I have experience with GURPS vs. D20. Most points have already been made (active defenses, character creation, HP, etc.), but I want to add, or press on, a few other points.

I don't necessarily find combat to be faster or slower in any system, but then again we generally use a "3 seconds rule", where you kinda have to declare what you do in 3 seconds or otherwise take a "Wait" maneuver (or whatever is the equivalent). It's not a hard rule but you get the idea, and it keeps combat fast.

The main difference however is in the combat options. Most combat in D20 boils down to "roll to hit" in my experience. But inevitably, players come up with extra detail with what they want to do -- disarming, grabbing, targeting a limb, beheading, multiple actions, you name it. You can see disappointment in their eyes when it's really just "roll to hit" in the end. A good GM can add some flavour to the roll in D20 (I never had such a GM though). In GURPS there's not only official rules you can rely on (which are potentially more "balanced" than what you improvised in D20), there's also stuff like Techniques where players can actively improve the specific move for future increased success. Generally speaking, there's just more "player involvement" in GURPS and I think they like that in general. More importantly, you can scale combat options up and down depending on the situation -- you don't have to use the bleeding or fatigue rules unless it's important for a specific scene.

The other point is that there are many "secondary systems" for which multiple options exist. The 2 main examples for me are magic and sanity rules. You can choose from a variety of such systems, with various "feel", and still have some official support from balanced, playtested rules. More importantly, they're not an integral part of the "core" rules so even if you make up your own house rules, you don't clash much with the system (I guess that's what people refer to when they say GURPS is more "modular").

D20 however has much, much, much more support. There are hundreds of modules that give you background, characters, adventures, locales, etc. Of course most of those can easily be converted to GURPS but that's additional work. D20 is more "pick up and play" in that regard -- it's a lot easier to take some pre-gen character and roll with an adventure. DF templates are supposed to make it easier in the same way, but there's almost no adventure/background support. GURPS is supposed to be a toolkit after all -- not an RPG with a specific world to play in. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just for a different crowd. Still, I'd love to see more investment in Banestorm or Infinite Worlds supplements for instance.

09-17-2016, 10:26 PM	#1
DocRailgun Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: System comparison GURPS Dungeon Fantasy vs DnD 5e...? It depends on what kind of game you'really looking for. Yes, DF is supposed to be a munchkiny sort of game, but you can also easily do a low-powered gritty game (as in classic AD&D, where a party fought one encounter with some fire beetles and then had to hobble back to town to rest). Those sorts of games aren't possible anymore in 5th edition without a lot of work on the GM's part - most everyone has more hp now (wizards even have a d6), ample chances to heal themselves with hour long rests, arcane spellcasters in armor (though with high Dex, light armor is as good as heavy armor), and almost anyone can have a blaster spell they can cast each round if they want to be a High elf, take a level in a spellcasters class or spend a feat at 4th level. On the other hand, 5th ed. doesn't have the unstoppable juggernauts of mid-to-high level 3.5 because there aren't a million ways to get bonuses - there no more of the stackable armor class bonuses l, for instance. The stat-boosting spells of 3.5 (Bull's Strength, etc.) don't actually increase stats in 5th ed., they just give advantage on that stat's tests, so adventurers won't be getting +10 Str and Dex (+something arcane, +something divine, +something profane, etc.) before battles. The nice thing is that there are reasons to play fighters now, especially if you want to play a gish. There's niche protection if you want it or you can end up with PCs who can do their class' job, cast one of those blaster can trips, and cast some minor healing by 8th level even without sacrificing any main class levels.

09-18-2016, 09:46 AM	#3
mehrkat Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin Texas	Re: System comparison GURPS Dungeon Fantasy vs DnD 5e...? DnD is at its core a game where you assess the danger and expect to use and lose resources and a dungeon crawl is this choice over and over again. Should I use my ability that takes a long rest to get back or ask I going to need it later. Will the hp I take in this battle a lower cost. Those are the tactical choices you are making. In GURPS the tactical choices you are making involve making sure you have the advantage in each combat, where every blow taken matter. Each second you have tactically significant choices. I find it feels different. __________________ He stared out in the distance to see the awesome might of the Meerkat war party.

09-18-2016, 12:12 PM	#4
lordabdul Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada	Re: System comparison GURPS Dungeon Fantasy vs DnD 5e...? I can't really speak to GURPS DF vs. DnD specifically, but I have experience with GURPS vs. D20. Most points have already been made (active defenses, character creation, HP, etc.), but I want to add, or press on, a few other points. I don't necessarily find combat to be faster or slower in any system, but then again we generally use a "3 seconds rule", where you kinda have to declare what you do in 3 seconds or otherwise take a "Wait" maneuver (or whatever is the equivalent). It's not a hard rule but you get the idea, and it keeps combat fast. The main difference however is in the combat options. Most combat in D20 boils down to "roll to hit" in my experience. But inevitably, players come up with extra detail with what they want to do -- disarming, grabbing, targeting a limb, beheading, multiple actions, you name it. You can see disappointment in their eyes when it's really just "roll to hit" in the end. A good GM can add some flavour to the roll in D20 (I never had such a GM though). In GURPS there's not only official rules you can rely on (which are potentially more "balanced" than what you improvised in D20), there's also stuff like Techniques where players can actively improve the specific move for future increased success. Generally speaking, there's just more "player involvement" in GURPS and I think they like that in general. More importantly, you can scale combat options up and down depending on the situation -- you don't have to use the bleeding or fatigue rules unless it's important for a specific scene. The other point is that there are many "secondary systems" for which multiple options exist. The 2 main examples for me are magic and sanity rules. You can choose from a variety of such systems, with various "feel", and still have some official support from balanced, playtested rules. More importantly, they're not an integral part of the "core" rules so even if you make up your own house rules, you don't clash much with the system (I guess that's what people refer to when they say GURPS is more "modular"). D20 however has much, much, much more support. There are hundreds of modules that give you background, characters, adventures, locales, etc. Of course most of those can easily be converted to GURPS but that's additional work. D20 is more "pick up and play" in that regard -- it's a lot easier to take some pre-gen character and roll with an adventure. DF templates are supposed to make it easier in the same way, but there's almost no adventure/background support. GURPS is supposed to be a toolkit after all -- not an RPG with a specific world to play in. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just for a different crowd. Still, I'd love to see more investment in Banestorm or Infinite Worlds supplements for instance.