The role of the GM

Cybren · 07-13-2016, 03:54 PM

On another forum someone made a thread conjecturing that unclear rules are 'unfair' to players and empower 'tyrannical' DMs to abuse their players. You can probably tell by my use of quotations that I don't share that persons opinion, but I'm curious what other people think of the idea of GMs as neutral interpreters of a 'complete' rules system rather than arbiters of rules in their own right. Something the person said to me (before getting increasingly hostile that I don't share his opinion) stuck out as just flat out wrong:

Quote:

The DM's primary job is not to be a rules arbiter, but to design or manage the campaign, control the NPCs, and keep everything moving. The rules should stand on their own. Any situation that the rules don't cover is a hole in the rules. There will be some of these in any edition, since players can take infinite actions. But when literally everything anyone tries is subject to DM approval or interpretation, that's a big freaking problem.

emphasis theirs.

ericthered · 07-13-2016, 05:07 PM

some facts:

The GM's job is to do everything that absolutely requires a neutral third party on site. Everything else is ideally handed off to someone else.
The world is not ideal and the GM may end up doing more than that. This is not a terrible problem if you have a good GM.
Good GM's are precious and requires someone who enjoys the process of facilitating play.

Stormcrow · 07-13-2016, 05:23 PM

What a GM does has changed over the years in subtle ways. With the initial release of D&D the game had almost no rules on purpose, because the GM was expected to use the principle of Free Kriegsspiel: he rules everything by deciding what should happen, dispassionately and according to his expert knowledge of the realities of the game world (which he made up).

As time went on and more and more rules got added to games, the GM started to become a mere rules-engine, applying published rules with little of his own judgment in use. Oh, these rule books told the GM to change rules they didn't like, but it was implicit that once changed, the GM would follow those rules.

A game like GURPS favors the GM-as-game-engine mode. It's got rules for everything, and the players have access to all the rules. The GM need merely apply them. You CAN insert GM judgment in what happens, but you typically have to remove pieces of the rules to do it. GURPS is very forgiving of this; there are few rules that can't be replaced with GM rulings. Some other games make this more difficult.

Cybren · 07-13-2016, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

A game like GURPS favors the GM-as-game-engine mode. It's got rules for everything, and the players have access to all the rules. The GM need merely apply them. You CAN insert GM judgment in what happens, but you typically have to remove pieces of the rules to do it. GURPS is very forgiving of this; there are few rules that can't be replaced with GM rulings. Some other games make this more difficult.

I would argue that GURPS doesn't relegate the GM to being a simple "game engine" due to the number of abilities that are explicitly dependent on the GM's judgement, or at the very least, GM-player negotiation.

robkelk · 07-13-2016, 05:44 PM

It looks to me that the person who was quoted in the original post wants a set of rules applied exactly and consistently, as if a computer was running the game. To that, I'll offer a misquote: Any GM that can be replaced by a machine, should be!

The GM isn't there only to apply the rules. She's also there to referee, to keep the plot moving, to present challenges that test the PCs without being insurmountable, and - most importantly, IMHO - to make sure that everybody (including the GM) is having fun. Sometimes that means adhering strictly to the rules, sometimes that means chucking the rules out the window and winging it. The trick is knowing which of those applies at any given time, and a computer can't do that (yet).

Brandy · 07-13-2016, 05:46 PM

You could probably just search for banned forum poster Peter Kneutson (um...spelling?). That was his mantra and you can read a lot of countervailing opinions. He was pretty much the only person who was so absolutist about it - so much so that I wonder if your mystery poster is him.

Cybren · 07-13-2016, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookman

You could probably just search for banned forum poster Peter Kneutson (um...spelling?). That was his mantra and you can read a lot of countervailing opinions. He was pretty much the only person who was so absolutist about it - so much so that I wonder if your mystery poster is him.

I do recall Peter Knuetson (and his oft-referenced RPG Sagatfl, I think it was?), but I don't quite believe these are the same people... could be, but who knows

cptbutton · 07-13-2016, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookman

You could probably just search for banned forum poster Peter Kneutson (um...spelling?). That was his mantra and you can read a lot of countervailing opinions. He was pretty much the only person who was so absolutist about it - so much so that I wonder if your mystery poster is him.

Peter Knutsen

Anaraxes · 07-13-2016, 06:44 PM

Reality in detail is extremely complex. GURPS may have a lot of rules, but it doesn't come near to covering everything. Any system is going to need a lot of GM adjudication to cover those holes in the rules. And any system -- or players -- that pretend that rules don't have those flaws, and can simply be unthinkingly and mechanically applied by rote, is just setting themselves up for trouble.

If you can't trust your GM, you need to find another one. If you can't trust any GM, you need to find another hobby.

Irish Wolf · 07-13-2016, 07:33 PM

Whether it's DM or GM, the big M stands for "Master". I don't think it's a terribly difficult concept...

07-13-2016, 05:07 PM	#2
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: The role of the GM some facts: The GM's job is to do everything that absolutely requires a neutral third party on site. Everything else is ideally handed off to someone else. The world is not ideal and the GM may end up doing more than that. This is not a terrible problem if you have a good GM. Good GM's are precious and requires someone who enjoys the process of facilitating play. __________________ Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!

07-13-2016, 05:23 PM	#3
Stormcrow Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ronkonkoma, NY	Re: The role of the GM What a GM does has changed over the years in subtle ways. With the initial release of D&D the game had almost no rules on purpose, because the GM was expected to use the principle of Free Kriegsspiel: he rules everything by deciding what should happen, dispassionately and according to his expert knowledge of the realities of the game world (which he made up). As time went on and more and more rules got added to games, the GM started to become a mere rules-engine, applying published rules with little of his own judgment in use. Oh, these rule books told the GM to change rules they didn't like, but it was implicit that once changed, the GM would follow those rules. A game like GURPS favors the GM-as-game-engine mode. It's got rules for everything, and the players have access to all the rules. The GM need merely apply them. You CAN insert GM judgment in what happens, but you typically have to remove pieces of the rules to do it. GURPS is very forgiving of this; there are few rules that can't be replaced with GM rulings. Some other games make this more difficult.

07-13-2016, 05:44 PM	#5
robkelk Untitled Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: between keyboard and chair	Re: The role of the GM It looks to me that the person who was quoted in the original post wants a set of rules applied exactly and consistently, as if a computer was running the game. To that, I'll offer a misquote: Any GM that can be replaced by a machine, should be! The GM isn't there only to apply the rules. She's also there to referee, to keep the plot moving, to present challenges that test the PCs without being insurmountable, and - most importantly, IMHO - to make sure that everybody (including the GM) is having fun. Sometimes that means adhering strictly to the rules, sometimes that means chucking the rules out the window and winging it. The trick is knowing which of those applies at any given time, and a computer can't do that (yet). __________________ Rob Kelk “Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.” – Bernard Baruch, Deming (New Mexico) Headlight, 6 January 1950 No longer reading these forums regularly.

07-13-2016, 05:46 PM	#6
Brandy Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Nashville, TN	Re: The role of the GM You could probably just search for banned forum poster Peter Kneutson (um...spelling?). That was his mantra and you can read a lot of countervailing opinions. He was pretty much the only person who was so absolutist about it - so much so that I wonder if your mystery poster is him. __________________ I didn't realize who I was until I stopped being who I wasn't. Formerly known as Bookman- forum name changed 1/3/2018.

07-13-2016, 06:44 PM	#9
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: The role of the GM Reality in detail is extremely complex. GURPS may have a lot of rules, but it doesn't come near to covering everything. Any system is going to need a lot of GM adjudication to cover those holes in the rules. And any system -- or players -- that pretend that rules don't have those flaws, and can simply be unthinkingly and mechanically applied by rote, is just setting themselves up for trouble. If you can't trust your GM, you need to find another one. If you can't trust any GM, you need to find another hobby.

07-13-2016, 07:33 PM	#10
Irish Wolf Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Earth, mostly	Re: The role of the GM Whether it's DM or GM, the big M stands for "Master". I don't think it's a terribly difficult concept... __________________ If you break the laws of Man, you go to prison. If you break the laws of God, you go to Hell. If you break the laws of Physics, you go to Sweden and receive a Nobel Prize.