Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Gerrard of Titan Server

To Tomsdad
Sure, but consider one of my earlier examples. Consider two people, one ST 13, and one ST 7. Both are using a "bastard sword" with two hands. Both have equal skill in the sword (and both have equal DX). Both are going to have the same hit rate, but one is going to do about twice the damage as the other on a hit. At face value, that seems to contradict what I've read and heard from HEMA experts regarding the usefulness of Strength for swordfighting.

Actually they won't. A bastard sword wielded in two hands has a MinST10, so that ST7 fighter will be at -3 to skill compared to their ST13 opponent.

It's one way ST does act as a limiting factor.

Remember a ST7 adult is going to be pretty weak!

Originally Posted by Gerrard of Titan Server

Perhaps in a real swordfight, a hit from the ST 7 or the ST 13 person are both incapacitating, which is one way that I might try to square the rules with reality, but I'm tempted to say that this is not correct.

Well nothing is for certain, ST7 will be doing 1d Sw cut or 1d Thr Imp*

"incapacitating" is subject to some variability in GURPS. You could possibly incapacitate someone with the above but you'll likely need to leverage some favourable factors. Hit location, a good damage roll, a failed knock down test etc. Some of which can be made more likely with skill.


As you say ST13 is going to be doing a lot more damage, and will have to rely much less on such favourable factors.
A good example of Skill vs. Raw Strength, remember that for the 60 points that ST difference is worth you can buy another 15 levels of skill. Which even with the -3 penalty for less than MinST** will be net +12.


And as has been mentioned there are issues with ST based Melee damage once ST gets high (and what 'high' means).

So that all said given the issue and the fact that you'd like to make differences in ST less of a factor in damage, I'd recommend one of the several house rules for alternative ST progression that reduce Thr/Sw. This will proportionally increase the importance of the weapon's adjustment to damage.

*sorry I'm assuming a bastard sword with a point

** I wouldn't recommend dropping ST this low for a PC that intends to get into a lot of fights though, even if they intend to use the saved points to buy skill (it comes with other disadvantages on top of the fact that the MinST penalty just negated 12 points spent on skill)

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Actually they won't. A bastard sword wielded in two hands has a MinST10, so that ST7 fighter will be at -3 to skill compared to their ST13 opponent.

It's one way ST does act as a limiting factor.

Remember a ST7 adult is going to be pretty weak!

That's an interesting point: high skill compensates for low ST, but only to a point. Your ST 7 fighter, if he's skill 18, is as effective as the ST 10, skill 15 opponent when it comes to pure skill. Increasing his ST by 3 would give him an effective boost of +3 skill, but further increases in ST would make no further increases to skill.

As for Gerrard's point, skill should impact knowing more than just how to get your sword connected with your opponent, but also how to make that impact do as much as possible. High skill does cover hit locations, which includes armor gaps and chinks, and high skill with unarmed attacks does offer techniques to improve striking damage in limited ways (Hammer fists, exotic hand strikes, etc). I know of no such techniques for melee weapons, but Martial Arts does include all rules necessary to do something like that, if you wanted to allow characters to improve their damage with skill in specific ways.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

That's an interesting point: high skill compensates for low ST, but only to a point. Your ST 7 fighter, if he's skill 18, is as effective as the ST 10, skill 15 opponent when it comes to pure skill. Increasing his ST by 3 would give him an effective boost of +3 skill, but further increases in ST would make no further increases to skill.

Yep it's limiting in one direction only (in the other direction MinST limits you in a different way)

Originally Posted by Mailanka

As for Gerrard's point, skill should impact knowing more than just how to get your sword connected with your opponent, but also how to make that impact do as much as possible. High skill does cover hit locations, which includes armor gaps and chinks, and high skill with unarmed attacks does offer techniques to improve striking damage in limited ways (Hammer fists, exotic hand strikes, etc). I know of no such techniques for melee weapons, but Martial Arts does include all rules necessary to do something like that, if you wanted to allow characters to improve their damage with skill in specific ways.

I've seen some proposed house rules using the Trained ST concept, that work well (subject to the issues of hand held Melee damage). But yep as you say you could build a technique around increasing damage