Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

[Bilanthri]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That reason being a psychological trick -- it's not that accelerating actually meaningfully affects damage, it's that not decelerating does, and human instinct causes you to decelerate shortly before reaching the point you're aiming at.

So you're suggesting that accelerating into the point of impact would not have a noticeable effect on measured force of impact, relative to a strike with no delta-v? I find that hard to believe, considering the math.

I was reminded of a fun video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZblxX_AzNjg

Look at the slow-motion capture and you can see how he is accelerating into the target. The auto-collision expert mentions "build(ing) up enough velocity" which is exactly what I'm referring to by bringing up Newton's Second Law. But, I think what's more interesting is how little rebound his fist undergoes. Essentially, he is counteracting the effects of deceleration on impact by accelerating into the impact.

Oh, and he hits as hard as a 35mph car collision.

[mhd]

People generally have a much lower threshold for acceptable wounds than PCs do. Bleeding to death or dying of gangrene can happen from pretty small wounds, and in real life you don't know about your HPs or whether you properly made a HT check. (Which is also why armor in the real world was a bit more "binary" than what fantasy adventurers wear)

So "sufficient" strength is probably quite low, especially if no armor is involved, although I'm quite wary of any differences that come in straight orders of magnitude.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by mhd

People generally have a much lower threshold for acceptable wounds than PCs do.

Especially when they're just playing at a sport, as with HEMA.

[Gollum]

In Japan, in Tokyo if I remember well what explained my Senseï who visited it, there is a room, a very long hallway, in which the best kyudoka (bowmen) did bow competitions. Shooting the target in this hallway is very hard because it is far away and there is the ceiling. Modern bow competitors are not able to reach the target. But kyudoka did, with their old wooden bows. How did they do that?

Actually their training required a lot of arm muscle training. They arms were very strong, so strong that very few people can bent their bows. Despite of the fact that they could have been quite thin.

What say the guy in this video is true: the bulk doesn't really matter. Except if you strike like an oaf, putting all your weight in your attack ... But strength does still matter. The problem is that strength is very specific. The strength of a karateka isn't at all the same than the strength of a weightlifter which isn't at all the same as the strength of a rock climber ...

So, how to handle these different strengths in GURPS? With the right advantages. And with the skill level.

In reality, the skill is as important as the strength. Someone who isn't trained to use a sword don't know the right angle of attack to do maximum damage. He doesn't either know how to best put his feet and the perfect hip move to improve even more his strike ...

Try to cut wood with an axe and compare your effectiveness with the one of a professional woodcutter. Even if you are generally stronger than him, his blows will be stronger than yours because he is very used to do that. He did that thousands of time!

GURPS doesn't take the skill into account for damage. But it still allows to take it into account through advantages. A good swordsman may for instance have Striking strength and many other advantages that improves damage rather than a flat high basic strength.

[Gerrard of Titan Server]

Originally Posted by Gollum

In Japan, in Tokyo if I remember well what explained my Senseï who visited it, there is a room, a very long hallway, in which the best kyudoka (bowmen) did bow competitions. Shooting the target in this hallway is very hard because it is far away and there is the ceiling. Modern bow competitors are not able to reach the target. But kyudoka did, with their old wooden bows. How did they do that?

Actually their training required a lot of arm muscle training. They arms were very strong, so strong that very few people can bent their bows. Despite of the fact that they could have been quite thin.

PS: As a historical fact, I find this particular fact to be absolutely fascinating. For example, when we dig up bones from European battlefields, we can tell who the English longbow archers were, because their back and arm bones were deformed in a very particular way, which was the result of very specific and extensive strength training for longbow use.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Gerrard of Titan Server

Is that even true in a real and meaningful sense? For a heavy object, I can more easily buy that, but swords only weigh 2 to 4 lb. Historical one-handed maces weighed 2.5 lb or less. Etc. Real historical lowtech melee weapons are exceptionally light compared to modern expectations. ....

It's not so much you need great strength to swing a realistic weapon fast, it's more that you need to be reasonably strong and fit to comfortably keep your weapon under control while still swinging it as fast as you want, for asw long as you want. This last is impotent as fatigue is also factor for which I recommend last gasp which also has ST playing a tangential role.

That said as others have already posted strength is not the primary stat in GURPS for melee combat (nor is it in real life either), DX or more precisely skill is.


For 5 point's of ST I can but at the least 12 levels in a melee skill, with that kind of skill advantage it will be a quick sword fight. (of course +5 ST has a wider application than that +12 in a melee skill).


Of course surrounding all this is the question of what is realistic ST (or more precisely what is a realistic portrayal of realistic ST)!

[Gerrard of Titan Server]

To Tomsdad
Sure, but consider one of my earlier examples. Consider two people, one ST 13, and one ST 7. Both are using a "bastard sword" with two hands. Both have equal skill in the sword (and both have equal DX). Both are going to have the same hit rate, but one is going to do about twice the damage as the other on a hit. At face value, that seems to contradict what I've read and heard from HEMA experts regarding the usefulness of Strength for swordfighting.

Perhaps in a real swordfight, a hit from the ST 7 or the ST 13 person are both incapacitating, which is one way that I might try to square the rules with reality, but I'm tempted to say that this is not correct.

Does anyone have any reliable sources for the impact force, energy, and momentum of a sword swing with "proper form / technique" as used in a one-on-one swords duel, and the same for a mace, and the same for outside of combat against a fixed target and swinging as hard as one can? Is my earlier source actually accurate? If so, that still seems to suggest that the basic GURPS damage formula for swords is entirely wrong, specifically the damage for the "bastard sword" strikes of the ST 13 and ST 7 persons should be much closer.

Or as I've been saying, maybe I'm completely wrong about everything.

...

To Gollum
Sure. I understand that a character with low ST can buy advantages to increase damage with a bastard sword. However, that doesn't answer my question: Is it realistic that that a ST 13 char does twice the damage as the ST 7 char with a "bastard sword", witn no further chargen to affect bastard sword damage, and all other chargen being equal? Should Strength really make that big of a difference absent specific chargen to increase sword damage?

Hell, should Strength even make that big of a difference in damage for swinging a bat or a mace in combat with proper form and technique, given some of the evidence that I can find for max bat swing speeds for children and professionals?

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Gerrard of Titan Server

PS: As a historical fact, I find this particular fact to be absolutely fascinating. For example, when we dig up bones from European battlefields, we can tell who the English longbow archers were, because their back and arm bones were deformed in a very particular way, which was the result of very specific and extensive strength training for longbow use.

Those skeletal deformities are not a result of strength training but were caused by actually using the bow.

[Gerrard of Titan Server]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Those skeletal deformities are not a result of strength training but were caused by actually using the bow.

And I think it's fair to say that "practice with a longbow (of a large draw weight)" counts as strength training. A very particular form of strength training, but definitely strength training.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Gollum

...

GURPS doesn't take the skill into account for damage. But it still allows to take it into account through advantages. A good swordsman may for instance have Striking strength and many other advantages that improves damage rather than a flat high basic strength.

IMO it does. With enough skill you can hit more precisely, which means you can bypass armour or hit more damaging targets. The net result is you do more damage. It's not direct like the way ST does but, but its a constant enough effect to count IMO

I do know some have suggested house rules for using trained ST and melee skills though