The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

One is that you get less points back for being big if you're less strong, when being weak probably makes being big even worse.

Gas-bag balloon aliens are overpriced, for example. They're not heavy, thus not strong, but they're huge. Thus, they're easy to hit, and have no compensation for that fact.

On the flip side, the slightly-larger but super-strong character (SM +1 and ST 110) saves ~100 points, thus his SM gave him 100 points.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Gas-bag balloon aliens are overpriced, for example. They're not heavy, thus not strong, but they're huge. Thus, they're easy to hit, and have no compensation for that fact.

On the flip side, the slightly-larger but super-strong character (SM +1 and ST 110) saves ~100 points, thus his SM gave him 100 points.

Yeah, they're very unfair in comparison...

But per point 2, the latter guy still spent 900 points on something that stacks up really badly compared to just about any other way to have spent 900 points. The SM+1 might be worth it, but the build that made the SM+1 worth it is not likely to be.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Yeah, they're very unfair in comparison...

But per point 2, the latter guy still spent 900 points on something that stacks up really badly compared to just about any other way to have spent 900 points. The SM+1 might be worth it, but the build that made the SM+1 worth it is not likely to be.

So we're arguing about two problems: SM should maybe be priced on its own, and ST is overpriced.

For the former, I think the argument is that SM is largely unimportant. I mean, the giant gas-bag alien also has longer reach and faster base move, etc. There are advantages to being that really huge, gangly dude, even if you're not particularly strong. I think the RAW case for the modifier is a sort of a sop to even those scales a bit, to make sure the +1 SM is worth it, so the drawbacks and benefits even out. We can argue for or against that.

The other problem is that ST is just too expensive. Actually, ST has a lot of problems. I did some homework on it awhile back, but I'd have to dig out my notes. In addition to being too expensive, it just doesn't scale well, and it causes a serious headache with "giant" critters. I tried to put together something inspired by Transformers, and ST was an absolute mess in that game.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

So we're arguing about two problems: SM should maybe be priced on its own, and ST is overpriced.

For the former, I think the argument is that SM is largely unimportant. I mean, the giant gas-bag alien also has longer reach and faster base move, etc. There are advantages to being that really huge, gangly dude, even if you're not particularly strong. I think the RAW case for the modifier is a sort of a sop to even those scales a bit, to make sure the +1 SM is worth it, so the drawbacks and benefits even out. We can argue for or against that.

The other problem is that ST is just too expensive. Actually, ST has a lot of problems. I did some homework on it awhile back, but I'd have to dig out my notes. In addition to being too expensive, it just doesn't scale well, and it causes a serious headache with "giant" critters. I tried to put together something inspired by Transformers, and ST was an absolute mess in that game.

There's another problem (which has been mentioned earlier) different things are just worth different amounts according to setting/TL

And there's really no getting around that unless you're going to introduce TL specific pricing structures. And that will be a can of worms.

Sadly I think judicious use of Unusual Background as both a advantage and disadvantage is the easier way to go.

(although I see Douglas Cole has done some stuff on DR cost by TL)

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

There's another problem (which has been mentioned earlier) different things are just worth different amounts according to setting/TL

And there's really no getting around that unless you're going to introduce TL specific pricing structures. And that will be a can of worms.

Sadly I think judicious use of Unusual Background as both a advantage and disadvantage is the easier way to go.

(although I see Douglas Cole has done some stuff on DR cost by TL)

Agreed. GURPS 4th specifically avoids pricing things differently by setting/TL (with a few exceptions such as high quality swords).

But Unusual Background can cover things like Ignite Fire being a cute trick at TL8 but a world-changer at early TL0 when humans knew how to use fire but not how to start it (the entire film Quest for Fire revolves around this).

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The other problem is that ST is just too expensive. Actually, ST has a lot of problems. I did some homework on it awhile back, but I'd have to dig out my notes. In addition to being too expensive, it just doesn't scale well, and it causes a serious headache with "giant" critters. I tried to put together something inspired by Transformers, and ST was an absolute mess in that game.

Logarhithmic ST from Pyramid solves some of the problems as long as you cut of at ST 0. Otherwise you get bats that have ST -10 and mosquitoes that have ST in the negative hundreds...

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

So we're arguing about two problems: SM should maybe be priced on its own, and ST is overpriced.

For the former, I think the argument is that SM is largely unimportant. I mean, the giant gas-bag alien also has longer reach and faster base move, etc. There are advantages to being that really huge, gangly dude, even if you're not particularly strong. I think the RAW case for the modifier is a sort of a sop to even those scales a bit, to make sure the +1 SM is worth it, so the drawbacks and benefits even out. We can argue for or against that.

I'm definitely on the 'positive SM is a disadvantage' side of things. It offers some moderately useful benefits for a melee fighter, but its effect on melee combat rolls is similar to -1 to DX, which is brutal, and in ranged combat you're an easier target for basically no benefit.

Outside of combat, or the occasional bout of intimidation, it could be useful for navigating environments built for bigger creatures...but it's a lot easier to compensate for being too small to climb the stairs than for being to big to fit through the doors.

EDIT: SM does not give you base move. Gigantism does, but that's not coming from SM.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The other problem is that ST is just too expensive. Actually, ST has a lot of problems. I did some homework on it awhile back, but I'd have to dig out my notes. In addition to being too expensive, it just doesn't scale well, and it causes a serious headache with "giant" critters. I tried to put together something inspired by Transformers, and ST was an absolute mess in that game.

Agree, and would be interested to see the notes.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'm definitely on the 'positive SM is a disadvantage' side of things. It offers some moderately useful benefits for a melee fighter, but its effect on melee combat rolls is similar to -1 to DX, which is brutal, and in ranged combat you're an easier target for basically no benefit.

Outside of combat, or the occasional bout of intimidation, it could be useful for navigating environments built for bigger creatures...but it's a lot easier to compensate for being too small to climb the stairs than for being to big to fit through the doors.

I believe Bruno had some notes putting positive SM at -15 per level and negative SM at +15 per level.

[Boomerang]

Are we talking about 4e ST being over-priced?

I find it interesting that in another recent thread it was claimed that a ST based barbarian was a superior fighter compared to a DX based swashbuckler in 4e.

For a normal ST range I think the 4e cost is about right. It could possibly made cheaper for super strength based on the law of diminished returns. I haven't played enough 4e to have a strong opinion either way.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Boomerang

Are we talking about 4e ST being over-priced?

I find it interesting that in another recent thread it was claimed that a ST based barbarian was a superior fighter compared to a DX based swashbuckler in 4e.

Okay, so here's the real problem: GURPS is centered in a man-oriented, "agent" style gameplay. For example, in DF, a human-scale character can leverage human-scale weapons and armor to maximize the power of his ST and pose a serious threat to someone else.

Consider that ST 10 deals about 1-2 thrust damage and 3-4 swing damage. Doubling that requires about +4 st [40] which gives you about 3-4 thrust damage and 7 swing damage.

DX is harder to measure when it comes to "doubling," but a DX 10 character will hit you about half the time while parrying about 1/4 of the time (meaning that one DX 10 character can expect to hit another about 37% of the time. If we increased our DX to 15 [100], we'd get a 95% hit rate, which (with 1/4 of our attacks dodged) gives us a hit rate of 71%, which is close to double. I think if you broke down into the actual tactics, you could come up with slightly more reasonable numbers, and GURPS offers some ways around this high cost: First of all, that higher DX gives you superior dodge (this character would defend 1/2 the time), and we could boost our skill rather than our DX for far cheaper, and DX is more broadly applicable than ST, so I think most people would argue that it's largely balanced, though I would argue that for pure combat utility, ST is slightly better than DX, point for point.

But let's do the same model, but set as a base ST 50. We're a bunch of giants, right? ST 50 deals 19 and 27 damage. To double this requires +50 ST [500], to ST 100, which deals 38 and 42 damage (it's high on thrust, but low on swing). To double your ability to hit still requires... +5 DX [100].

"Alright, genius, but what if you started at DX 20?"

Okay, so the problem with DX 20 is that it basically always hits and always defends. The only way to get past it is to use deceptive attacks that bring you back, more or less, to the center of the bell-curve. And the ratio of deceptive attack penalty to defense penalty is the same as the ratio between attack and defense: 2 to 1. This means that a character with DX 25 is twice as likely to hit someone as someone with DX 20. Look, DX 25 defends with a 15 while someone with DX 20 defends with a 13. Apply a -10 to both attacks, and you end up with... 15 and 10, just like before, and a defense of 10 and 8... just like before. The ratio remains the same. It doesn't matter where you are on the scale: +5 DX effectively doubles your ability to hit someone once all deceptive attacks are taken into account.

But +5 ST does not effectively double your ability to damage someone.

Most of GURPS lives on a bell-curve, but ST does not. It's linear. That means that for your 20 points, DX gets you about the same amount of oomph each time you buy it, but those 10 points for ST are worth less and less. This means that ST works fine on a human scale, but becomes a disaster when you slide far off of it. I know I came up with some solutions... but they ended up look like pale imitations of what T-Bone Tony has already done.

This is in a low ST, DF-style game. The problem becomes even more compounded in a high TL game, like those I play, because weapon damage rapidly eclipses ST-based damage, and the ability to avoid those attacks utterly eclipses the ability to endure them. Being ST 20, or even ST 50, isn't worth that much in a game with disinetgrators, but being DX 20 is definitely worth it in such a game.