The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

[Boomerang]

Originally Posted by Tallor

Why does greater size have a discount, exactly?

I like that rule. In my campaigns where the best defences are cover or not being seen at all, being larger is a major disadvantage. Cheaper strength seems like a fair way of offsetting the downside of being a bigger target.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Boomerang

I like that rule. In my campaigns where the best defences are cover or not being seen at all, being larger is a major disadvantage. Cheaper strength seems like a fair way of offsetting the downside of being a bigger target.

There are two problems with that.

One is that you get less points back for being big if you're less strong, when being weak probably makes being big even worse.

The other is that if you are big and strong, even with the discount you're paying a lot of points for something which will in many respects be a net loss in a game like you describe.

I would be surprised if there's any case where the ST discount will make being big over-powered, but that doesn't mean that it's good.

[Flyndaran]

The higher the TL the more disadvantageous positive SM, and the less advantageous high strength, becomes.
But yeah, it is odd to discount one thing that's only loosely connected to what's actually disadvantageous.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

One is that you get less points back for being big if you're less strong, when being weak probably makes being big even worse.

Gas-bag balloon aliens are overpriced, for example. They're not heavy, thus not strong, but they're huge. Thus, they're easy to hit, and have no compensation for that fact.

On the flip side, the slightly-larger but super-strong character (SM +1 and ST 110) saves ~100 points, thus his SM gave him 100 points.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Gas-bag balloon aliens are overpriced, for example. They're not heavy, thus not strong, but they're huge. Thus, they're easy to hit, and have no compensation for that fact.

On the flip side, the slightly-larger but super-strong character (SM +1 and ST 110) saves ~100 points, thus his SM gave him 100 points.

Yeah, they're very unfair in comparison...

But per point 2, the latter guy still spent 900 points on something that stacks up really badly compared to just about any other way to have spent 900 points. The SM+1 might be worth it, but the build that made the SM+1 worth it is not likely to be.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Yeah, they're very unfair in comparison...

But per point 2, the latter guy still spent 900 points on something that stacks up really badly compared to just about any other way to have spent 900 points. The SM+1 might be worth it, but the build that made the SM+1 worth it is not likely to be.

So we're arguing about two problems: SM should maybe be priced on its own, and ST is overpriced.

For the former, I think the argument is that SM is largely unimportant. I mean, the giant gas-bag alien also has longer reach and faster base move, etc. There are advantages to being that really huge, gangly dude, even if you're not particularly strong. I think the RAW case for the modifier is a sort of a sop to even those scales a bit, to make sure the +1 SM is worth it, so the drawbacks and benefits even out. We can argue for or against that.

The other problem is that ST is just too expensive. Actually, ST has a lot of problems. I did some homework on it awhile back, but I'd have to dig out my notes. In addition to being too expensive, it just doesn't scale well, and it causes a serious headache with "giant" critters. I tried to put together something inspired by Transformers, and ST was an absolute mess in that game.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

So we're arguing about two problems: SM should maybe be priced on its own, and ST is overpriced.

For the former, I think the argument is that SM is largely unimportant. I mean, the giant gas-bag alien also has longer reach and faster base move, etc. There are advantages to being that really huge, gangly dude, even if you're not particularly strong. I think the RAW case for the modifier is a sort of a sop to even those scales a bit, to make sure the +1 SM is worth it, so the drawbacks and benefits even out. We can argue for or against that.

The other problem is that ST is just too expensive. Actually, ST has a lot of problems. I did some homework on it awhile back, but I'd have to dig out my notes. In addition to being too expensive, it just doesn't scale well, and it causes a serious headache with "giant" critters. I tried to put together something inspired by Transformers, and ST was an absolute mess in that game.

There's another problem (which has been mentioned earlier) different things are just worth different amounts according to setting/TL

And there's really no getting around that unless you're going to introduce TL specific pricing structures. And that will be a can of worms.

Sadly I think judicious use of Unusual Background as both a advantage and disadvantage is the easier way to go.

(although I see Douglas Cole has done some stuff on DR cost by TL)

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

There's another problem (which has been mentioned earlier) different things are just worth different amounts according to setting/TL

And there's really no getting around that unless you're going to introduce TL specific pricing structures. And that will be a can of worms.

Sadly I think judicious use of Unusual Background as both a advantage and disadvantage is the easier way to go.

(although I see Douglas Cole has done some stuff on DR cost by TL)

Agreed. GURPS 4th specifically avoids pricing things differently by setting/TL (with a few exceptions such as high quality swords).

But Unusual Background can cover things like Ignite Fire being a cute trick at TL8 but a world-changer at early TL0 when humans knew how to use fire but not how to start it (the entire film Quest for Fire revolves around this).

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The other problem is that ST is just too expensive. Actually, ST has a lot of problems. I did some homework on it awhile back, but I'd have to dig out my notes. In addition to being too expensive, it just doesn't scale well, and it causes a serious headache with "giant" critters. I tried to put together something inspired by Transformers, and ST was an absolute mess in that game.

Logarhithmic ST from Pyramid solves some of the problems as long as you cut of at ST 0. Otherwise you get bats that have ST -10 and mosquitoes that have ST in the negative hundreds...

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

So we're arguing about two problems: SM should maybe be priced on its own, and ST is overpriced.

For the former, I think the argument is that SM is largely unimportant. I mean, the giant gas-bag alien also has longer reach and faster base move, etc. There are advantages to being that really huge, gangly dude, even if you're not particularly strong. I think the RAW case for the modifier is a sort of a sop to even those scales a bit, to make sure the +1 SM is worth it, so the drawbacks and benefits even out. We can argue for or against that.

I'm definitely on the 'positive SM is a disadvantage' side of things. It offers some moderately useful benefits for a melee fighter, but its effect on melee combat rolls is similar to -1 to DX, which is brutal, and in ranged combat you're an easier target for basically no benefit.

Outside of combat, or the occasional bout of intimidation, it could be useful for navigating environments built for bigger creatures...but it's a lot easier to compensate for being too small to climb the stairs than for being to big to fit through the doors.

EDIT: SM does not give you base move. Gigantism does, but that's not coming from SM.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The other problem is that ST is just too expensive. Actually, ST has a lot of problems. I did some homework on it awhile back, but I'd have to dig out my notes. In addition to being too expensive, it just doesn't scale well, and it causes a serious headache with "giant" critters. I tried to put together something inspired by Transformers, and ST was an absolute mess in that game.

Agree, and would be interested to see the notes.