Pyramid #3/89: Alternate Dungeons II

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by PK

I see Ternas' point, though -- if you have Karate, why would you even bother learning Boxing or Brawling? (There's some justification for the latter, but not much, and no reason to pick up the former.)

Hmmm. Perhaps simply reduce the cost for those with Karate? Or maybe add DR to your hands for those with Karate? If we're going to errata it I'd like a consensus.

[Anders]

Boxing gives an improved Dodge when retreating and is not penalized for encumbrance. If you plan on carrying a lot of weight, it's superior to Karate.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Anders

Boxing gives an improved Dodge when retreating and is not penalized for encumbrance. If you plan on carrying a lot of weight, it's superior to Karate.

Technically correct, sure, but in practical, actual play, no one who has spent 8+ points to master Karate is also going to buy Boxing. They'll either deal with the encumbrance issue or take Armor Familiarity 4 (which is available in DF as part of a power-up) to negate the problem completely.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Hmmm. Perhaps simply reduce the cost for those with Karate? Or maybe add DR to your hands for those with Karate? If we're going to errata it I'd like a consensus.

It has Karate as a prereq, so the only people who learn it will be those who know Karate, by definition. So there's no real reason to call that out as an exception when it's the rule.

IMO, the easiest fix is a bit of an overhaul, but one that will actually simplify it: (1) specify that it applies just to Karate strikes, (2) change it to two levels, folding level 1 into level 2, and (3) reduce all costs by 2 points.

So now it costs 4 or 8 points (which we can spin as "4 points/level"). Level 1 gives you +2 hand DR, +1 damage, and you ignore "Hurting Yourself." Level 2 adds Sharp Claws.

Also, while we're talking errata, I missed something with Aggressive Defense. It should be a flat 1 point cheaper (6 or 19 points) because you don't need Unique Technique; Aggressive Parry is a bog-standard technique.

EDIT: Actually, this question comes up for Aggressive Defense, too. I guess the real question here is, will any DF delvers ever end up with more than one unarmed striking skill? And even if it's technically possible, is it a common enough case that we need to factor in wildcard techniques for it? (After all, most wildcard techniques are used to cover a wide range of weapons.)

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by PK

It has Karate as a prereq, so the only people who learn it will be those who know Karate, by definition. So there's no real reason to call that out as an exception when it's the rule.

IMO, the easiest fix is a bit of an overhaul, but one that will actually simplify it: (1) specify that it applies just to Karate strikes, (2) change it to two levels, folding level 1 into level 2, and (3) reduce all costs by 2 points.

So now it costs 4 or 8 points (which we can spin as "4 points/level"). Level 1 gives you +2 hand DR, +1 damage, and you ignore "Hurting Yourself." Level 2 adds Sharp Claws.

That works.

Originally Posted by PK

Also, while we're talking errata, I missed something with Aggressive Defense. It should be a flat 1 point cheaper (6 or 19 points) because you don't need Unique Technique; Aggressive Parry is a bog-standard technique.

EDIT: Actually, this question comes up for Aggressive Defense, too. I guess the real question here is, do any DF templates ever have more than one unarmed striking skill? And even if they do, is that a common enough case that we need to factor in wildcard techniques for it? (After all, most wildcard techniques are used to cover a wide range of weapons.)

Hmmm. Well, that's....annoying. I'm good with your suggested fix.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Hmmm. Well, that's....annoying. I'm good with your suggested fix.

Okay; I'll send a revision errata to Steven and Nikki.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by PK

Okay; I'll send a revision errata to Steven and Nikki.

Thanks, PK.

[Anthony]

As a side point, 2 x Crushing Striker (Limb, -20%) [8] gives you Thrust+1/die damage and means you count as armed when punching or parrying, which seems pretty solidly better than knifehand.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Anthony

As a side point, 2 x Crushing Striker (Limb, -20%) [8] gives you Thrust+1/die damage and means you count as armed when punching or parrying, which seems pretty solidly better than knifehand.

(A) Knifehand 2 lets you do cutting damage, not just crushing, for the same cost. So I'd call that balanced. (B) I haven't discussed the exact reasons with him in detail, but I know that for the purposes of DF only, Kromm has ruled that the only benefit of Striker (Limb, -20%) is the +1/die damage; it isn't treated as an armed attack in DF.

[Ternas]

Originally Posted by PK

(A) I haven't discussed the exact reasons with him in detail, but I know that for the purposes of DF only, Kromm has ruled that the only benefit of Striker (Limb, -20%) is the +1/die damage; it isn't treated as an armed attack in DF.

Really?

Oh goodness, if that is really true then that's really gonna mess some things up for the campaign I'm a part of, such as the Unarmed Master power-up from Pyramid 3-61 pg. 13, More Power to Dungeon Warriors that it appears Sean co-wrote, which seems to imply just the opposite. Including the benefits of weapons not getting free damage off of you on a parry. Some of our Martial Artists were really hoping for that, or at least the Natural Weapon version we had houseruled in.

Though I guess that might just be another side effect of the cosmic mod other than Stackable.

Guess that means that our MAs are gonna have to sink cash for Cestus and points into Judo to offset the Bad Grip penalty.