[DF] Arabian Nights questions

[b-dog]

The Egyptian gods as djinn

I was thinking that maybe the ancient Egyptian gods could be djinn that were very powerful in the time before Moses (Musa). I am thinking that these gods would be neutral and they desire to be adored and worshipped so they taught man to use magic. They also created fantastic creatures like the sphinx. They taught man the magical spells to become immortal and also how to create mummies. After Moses came and battled the Pharoah the power of the Egyptian gods diminished greatly. They could no longer grant Power Investiture and so instead only teach magic beset of their sphere of influence.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by b-dog

The Egyptian gods as djinn

I was thinking that maybe the ancient Egyptian gods could be djinn that were very powerful in the time before Moses (Musa). I am thinking that these gods would be neutral and they desire to be adored and worshipped so they taught man to use magic. They also created fantastic creatures like the sphinx. They taught man the magical spells to become immortal and also how to create mummies. After Moses came and battled the Pharoah the power of the Egyptian gods diminished greatly. They could no longer grant Power Investiture and so instead only teach magic beset of their sphere of influence.

That is in fact a fairly elegant arrangement and suits a game where Islam is intended as the dominant religion.

[b-dog]

Maybe the Sumerian and Babylonian gods could be djinn too. Maybe in the past these pantheons of gods battled each other as they protected each civilization against the other. Once monotheism became dominant these djinn/gods were diminished but they still had the ability to teach magic and that is why wizards are often in contact with them.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by b-dog

Maybe the Sumerian and Babylonian gods could be djinn too. Maybe in the past these pantheons of gods battled each other as they protected each civilization against the other. Once monotheism became dominant these djinn/gods were diminished but they still had the ability to teach magic and that is why wizards are often in contact with them.

If your metaphysics are "angels, demons, and djinn, representing good, evil, and neutrality", perhaps. But in our world, djinn are almost exclusively an Arabic deal; the Annunaki could be mistaken for djinn, however.

Confusing the issue is the whole "Enlil = El Ellyon = Yahweh" issue that pops up over time when tracing the Genesis timeline back to Uruk (the biblical Ur) in Sumeria. Consider that Enlil, who was later equated with the Canaanite/Hebrew Yahweh, was no friend to humanity (seriously, read the Gilgamesh epic; he sent the flood against humanity because we were too noisy!), while Enki, who is often equated with the serpent (who was later equated with Satan), was in the Sumerian/Babylonian tales was the friend, teacher, and protector of humanity, and you have to wonder which religion got it wrong and why.





I don't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities or faith, but the drift towards "all pagan gods, even the benevolent ones, were demons/djinn/capricious fae/etc." annoys and slightly offends me. Surely there's room in a setting based on Arabian Nights mythology for more than just "One True God, everyone else is a pale imitation" when a reading of the other stuff makes one wonder if perhaps the men who wrote and edited the Bible and/or Quran got stuff wrong - perhaps even intentionally. Even in Genesis, Yahweh admits other gods exist; why can't the Annunaki of Mesopotamia and/or the gods of Mount Olympus be equally powerful as Yahweh, but decided for their own reasons to let Yahweh have his three or four religions that are constantly warring between themselves?

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

If your metaphysics are "angels, demons, and djinn, representing good, evil, and neutrality", perhaps. But in our world, djinn are almost exclusively an Arabic deal; the Annunaki could be mistaken for djinn, however.

Confusing the issue is the whole "Enlil = El Ellyon = Yahweh" issue that pops up over time when tracing the Genesis timeline back to Uruk (the biblical Ur) in Sumeria. Consider that Enlil, who was later equated with the Canaanite/Hebrew Yahweh, was no friend to humanity (seriously, read the Gilgamesh epic; he sent the flood against humanity because we were too noisy!), while Enki, who is often equated with the serpent (who was later equated with Satan), was in the Sumerian/Babylonian tales was the friend, teacher, and protector of humanity, and you have to wonder which religion got it wrong and why.





I don't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities or faith, but the drift towards "all pagan gods, even the benevolent ones, were demons/djinn/capricious fae/etc." annoys and slightly offends me. Surely there's room in a setting based on Arabian Nights mythology for more than just "One True God, everyone else is a pale imitation" when a reading of the other stuff makes one wonder if perhaps the men who wrote and edited the Bible and/or Quran got stuff wrong - perhaps even intentionally. Even in Genesis, Yahweh admits other gods exist; why can't the Annunaki of Mesopotamia and/or the gods of Mount Olympus be equally powerful as Yahweh, but decided for their own reasons to let Yahweh have his three or four religions that are constantly warring between themselves?

In the Arabian Nights setting Islam is the dominant faith but the adventures are in the ruins of the pagan gods (the DF part). The pagan gods are more active in the world too and they teach many magical spells and powers. I am not trying to offend people, I just want to try to make some sense out of what the older pagan gods came from. To Muslims I think that they would think that the pagan gods were at best djinn and at worst demons. Anyway, how would you have the pagan gods be as powerful as Allah yet interact more with humanity? Why would faiths that have gods that interact with people be defeated by Islam? If you have ideas please share. This is the reason I am posting this, go try to organize the cosmology of Arabian Nights.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by b-dog

In the Arabian Nights setting Islam is the dominant faith but the adventures are in the ruins of the pagan gods (the DF part). The pagan gods are more active in the world too and they teach many magical spells and powers. I am not trying to offend people, I just want to try to make some sense out of what the older pagan gods came from. To Muslims I think that they would think that the pagan gods were at best djinn and at worst demons. Anyway, how would you have the pagan gods be as powerful as Allah yet interact more with humanity? Why would faiths that have gods that interact with people be defeated by Islam? If you have ideas please share. This is the reason I am posting this, go try to organize the cosmology of Arabian Nights.

In my opinion, the fallacy is that one god "defeated" the pagan pantheons. What I think really happened is that Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah just had more charismatic leaders at the time that promised something that the public felt they needed, so the public abandoned the old ways to slip to something new. Just because a religion is dominant does not make its deity/deities "more powerful". Case in point: who is more powerful, the Muslim Allah, the pantheistic Hindi gods still worshipped by 89% of India's populace, or the gods of the Chinese folk religion still revered by roughly an equal number of China's populace? All claim to be more powerful than other two.

Try this: the pagan gods have their own reasons for letting an upstart from the Canaanite pantheon rise to prominence over the Mediterranean, and are waiting for the right time to return, which being immortal they have the patience to wait a few thousand years. Of course, their old ruins still abound, and some aren't willing to wait or have plans to interfere with the upstart monotheistic religions. The djinn are powerful, and many may claim to be the gods of old, which can cause some confusion, but are not - even though some of the pagan gods may simply turn a blind eye or give covert support to these djinn impersonators.

In my opinion, the PCs should not know whether the pagan god they run into is a djinn or an actual god. They should also not know whether the priests of the dominant religion is getting powers from Allah or Shaitan, or whether Shaitan is a djinn or a devil - or an ancient pagan god who is more protective of humanity in general than Allah. Let the players guess and keep them on their toes, don't just decree the dogma of the religion is 100% correct and everything else is the wrong way.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

In my opinion, the fallacy is that one god "defeated" the pagan pantheons. What I think really happened is that Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah just had more charismatic leaders at the time that promised something that the public felt they needed, so the public abandoned the old ways to slip to something new. Just because a religion is dominant does not make its deity/deities "more powerful". Case in point: who is more powerful, the Muslim Allah, the pantheistic Hindi gods still worshipped by 89% of India's populace, or the gods of the Chinese folk religion still revered by roughly an equal number of China's populace? All claim to be more powerful than other two.

Try this: the pagan gods have their own reasons for letting an upstart from the Canaanite pantheon rise to prominence over the Mediterranean, and are waiting for the right time to return, which being immortal they have the patience to wait a few thousand years. Of course, their old ruins still abound, and some aren't willing to wait or have plans to interfere with the upstart monotheistic religions. The djinn are powerful, and many may claim to be the gods of old, which can cause some confusion, but are not - even though some of the pagan gods may simply turn a blind eye or give covert support to these djinn impersonators.

In my opinion, the PCs should not know whether the pagan god they run into is a djinn or an actual god. They should also not know whether the priests of the dominant religion is getting powers from Allah or Shaitan, or whether Shaitan is a djinn or a devil - or an ancient pagan god who is more protective of humanity in general than Allah. Let the players guess and keep them on their toes, don't just decree the dogma of the religion is 100% correct and everything else is the wrong way.

They are both narrative constructions. One is not more fallacious then the other.

[b-dog]

Whether the pagan gods are full gods or demoted gods or dlinn, I want the set up to be as follows. Allah does not interact directly in the world. He lets his faithful do it for Him. Maybe He will intervene on a prayer but it will more likely an angel that is sent instead of direct action.

The pagan gods are active however and they often have small cults and teach magic. Wizards greatly revere the pagan gods and search out their temples and ruins for magic items and lost spell books. The pagan gods also battle rival pantheons too but since Islam is so dominant in Arabian Nights the battles are much less than in the past. The followers of the pagan gods keep themselves hidden from the Islamic world as they do not want to attract attention . So how is the best way to achieve this set up?

[b-dog]

As far as the force of evil goes I would like to have it set up that the evil/villainous gods of the pagans are analogous to the chaotic evil demons of AD&D while the evil forces of Ibliss/Shaiton are like the lawful evil devils of AD&D. The evil pagan gods cause a lot of trouble and fuel dark cults that cause mayhem while Ibliss/Shaiton is more bound toward organized evil because they are offset by the power of Islam. Both evil forces war against each other however.

[jason taylor]

Of course most Arabian Nights is Low Fantasy rather then High Fantasy-more concerned with interesting but not to spectacular doings in a world where magic is assumed and less concerned with mythic adventures.