Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

[vicky_molokh]

Look, the 200-hour figure needn't be taken with that amount of precision. The point is that I didn't have prior gun training, and had very little gun-like practice (surely not enough even for one point in Gun Sport).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Look, the 200-hour figure needn't be taken with that amount of precision. The point is that I didn't have prior gun training, and had very little gun-like practice (surely not enough even for one point in Gun Sport).

There are plenty of reasons to assume that Guns skill is easy enough to learn that 200 hours per point is wildly overestimating the time for most people.

200 hours per point in the skill is an average for all skills. Nuclear Physics probably goes slower, as I doubt that it's common for people to gain 12 points in it and becoming a professional nuclear phycicist by studying really hard for a year. Guns is learned much faster, especially the first few points.

When on a gun range in New Hampshire, I had to hire an instructor in order to shoot the guns I wanted, because of their own rules that no one without a licence shoot unaccompanied. He was a serviceman and his military job was pistol instructor.

After I had shot the first five shots, he said that he was glad I knew how to shoot, now we could focus on tactical exercises. Some people are difficult to train, because they have bad habits or are afraid of the gun. Some people need a few hours to learn. And some people can shoot real guns the same way they shoot toy guns, paintball guns and air guns, because at a firing range, at short range, a real gun is, if anything, only easier to use.

I learned rapid target acquisition from rest, using cover, rapid reload, failure-to-stop drill and immediate action drill, but I didn't really have to learn how to point the gun at a target within 20 yards and hit.

Getting military recruits to Guns -12 takes surprisingly little time and effort. It's getting them to shed some of the less desirable Disadvantages, pick up a few of the more sought-after and get skill in Soldier and associated skills that takes most of the time.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

There are plenty of reasons to assume that Guns skill is easy enough to learn that 200 hours per point is wildly overestimating the time for most people.

Maybe. But if you take it to the opposite extreme, postulating that a person who picks up a non-Art, non-Sports pistol for the first time in one's life is supposed to have a skill at DX, you have pretty much stepped into a system that is nothing like the way GURPS Defaults works (and the intent was to reality-test the latter).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Maybe. But if you take it to the opposite extreme, postulating that a person who picks up a non-Art, non-Sports pistol for the first time in one's life is supposed to have a skill at DX, you have pretty much stepped into a system that is nothing like the way GURPS Defaults works (and the intent was to reality-test the latter).

Performing a simple task like shooting at a firing range at DX after having learnt the basics of how a gun works* is not the same as being able to use it in a real firefight at full DX or IQ.

On the other hand, a lot of police departments spend much less than 200 hours on training officers to use firearms. I don't have a problem with saying that 1-2 point in Guns (Pistol) can easily result from a lifetime of familiarising through media, several serious lectures on how real guns work, as opposed to fake ones, and a day or two at a firing range.

Actually, a lot of combat skills in GURPS are more about attitude than anything else. The mechanics of Brawling, Knife or Guns aren't complex. The reason most people are bad at violence is that they don't know how to deal with adrenaline, fear, rage and the mental block against hurting others that most civilised people seem to have. GURPS treats these as physical skills, but in reality, a lot of taks that fall under them depend on being mentally able and willing.

A person with a sensible attitude toward weapon safety and a pragmatic ability to hurt others when necessary will probably not require all that many shooting lessons and self-defence courses before he can function at DX to DX+2 with a wide range of weapons, as well as Brawling and simple grappling moves. It costs a lot of points in GURPS, but it's not really realistic to have it take a long time.

*However that was done. Compared to many people throughout history, modern boys who consume Western media and play with toy guns know an astonishing amount about military weapons and have plenty of experience in pointing guns.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Look, the 200-hour figure needn't be taken with that amount of precision. The point is that I didn't have prior gun training, and had very little gun-like practice (surely not enough even for one point in Gun Sport).

No I know, in fact I was saying it shouldn't really be ;-)

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Icelander

On the other hand, a lot of police departments spend much less than 200 hours on training officers to use firearms. I don't have a problem with saying that 1-2 point in Guns (Pistol) can easily result from a lifetime of familiarising through media, several serious lectures on how real guns work, as opposed to fake ones, and a day or two at a firing range.

But I don't think this is what our reality test was, is it?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Performing a simple task like shooting at a firing range at DX after having learnt the basics of how a gun works* is not the same as being able to use it in a real firefight at full DX or IQ.

If it were that simple, people doing classical sports shooting would never bother learning Gun Sport (or is it Art?), and would improve this 'simple task' instead.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If it were that simple, people doing classical sports shooting would never bother learning Gun Sport (or is it Art?), and would improve this 'simple task' instead.

I have real trouble with the concept of Guns Sport skill for target shooting. It might make more sense for paintball guns or nerf guns, as these don't function much like real guns.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Performing a simple task like shooting at a firing range at DX after having learnt the basics of how a gun works* is not the same as being able to use it in a real firefight at full DX or IQ.

While I think this statement is 100% correct, it contradicts your statement about only taking a short time to get military personnel to Guns (Rifle)-12.

I think it's probably accurate to say that it takes a short time to get military personnel to Guns Sport (Rifle)-12, which is a combat skill of DX-1, or Guns-9. That's more consistent with observed results.

The requirements to get to Guns-12 in combat situations are much higher, and require intensive and realistic training only given to the real shooters.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

While I think this statement is 100% correct, it contradicts your statement about only taking a short time to get military personnel to Guns (Rifle)-12.

I think it's probably accurate to say that it takes a short time to get military personnel to Guns Sport (Rifle)-12, which is a combat skill of DX-1, or Guns-9. That's more consistent with observed results.

The requirements to get to Guns-12 in combat situations are much higher, and require intensive and realistic training only given to the real shooters.

I personally think that's because most people have Pacifism (Reluctant Killer), which neatly covers how people can easily perform up to Guns (Rifle) 12+ standard on the firing range with minimal training, but most people miss like they have only skill 6-10 under combat conditions.